Uh, two.
Uh, uh, uh.
Welcome to the Clanet ninja podcast.
My name is Jay Hasler.
As always, I'm doing my best to bring you the finest in Clanet information and entertainment.
Today, in the podcast, I'm speaking with Larry Guy.
Larry Guy is a fantastic planet player.
He's played on Broadway.
He's played epineer Filimonic.
He's played in the New York City opera, the ballet, principal planet of the Joffrey ballet.
He's done it all.
And even more important to this podcast and our conversation, He has put out a number of really, really fantastic books, uh, one on embouchure, one on articulation, he's catalogued all the books that Daniel Bernard wrote in his life, and also put together a really wonderful uh, sort of study guide, uh, Good Rose, 32 AT's.
We talk about all those books.
We talk about all things, clarinet, and Larry shared some really wonderful secrets with us.
Before we get into that, don't forget the likes of scribe.
Five stars leave a review.
Do something to help me if you would get this information into the algorithm and out into the world.
That'll be really, really fantastic.
And if you're an adult planet player looking to scale up your improvement, check out the planet ninja Deljo.
Links for the books that Larry wrote, uh, links to me are all gonna be down in the description of the show notes.
Check it all out.
Uh, it's worth your time.
And by the way, let me just put a little bit of a plug in here for my friend Cameron Hawz.
Of Camco publishing who is the person that I'm gonna direct you to to get all of these wonderful books.
No further ado.
Here's my conversation with mister Larry Guy.
Larry, thanks for joining me here on the podcast.
Now, well, Jay, it's a pleasure to see you.
I was thinking back to the last time we saw each other was in Queens, and we played some pop show out there.
Yeah.
With some fancy nouveau hipster band.
Right? Uh-huh.
Okay.
Uh, the the pig Martini, I think was the name of the band.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
No.
It was it was quite a while ago.
Yeah.
When I when I got started on this podcast, you were one of the people I wanted to talk to and that is because of all the books that you have played either entirely.
It's their your books or books that you have edited.
Uh-huh.
And I go to them a lot for material and for ways to, uh, talk about playing the clarinet.
And it's been it's it's oh, you've always been inspirational to me in that way, but I I I feel like every once in a while I just run into another book that you have that you've put out.
And then I'm always glad that I have.
Oh, thank you.
And so the as far as I know, the first two were the embouchure book and the articulation book.
Can you talk to us about those? I think uh I think uh articulation was a little bit later, but the embouchure book I think was first.
I think you're right about that.
But these were things that you had put together basically as materials for your students that ended up working very nicely in in a collection and and a book.
Yeah.
And I guess like even more than just talking about the book, what I wanna know is where your principles of embouchure came from, like what teachers like what like the line of this history of planet plane the span of your career is quite long and like we played much different mouthpieces and possibly people are going for a different sound now than early on in your career.
Like like what what differences in embouchure and the style of or that we go for is find out.
Maybe maybe not you and me, but like what's changed.
And has there been any implication about the embouchure that we should know about? That's a pretty big question.
Yeah.
Go ahead and talk about whatever you want because I wanna break it down a little bit.
Yeah.
Is it book um, started to happen, uh, because I was working with a student who was an adult, and he had played his entire life.
His name was Julian Ander, and he actually was a just about Dave Weber's age.
So he was when I first started working with him, he was in his seventies.
He had retired.
He'd been a very successful he had a shop for a photographer.
And so uh, sold cameras and that whole thing, and he was very successful.
And he retired and he and he had been playing his whole life, but he really wanted to, um, focus on the clarinet in his retirement.
And he was practicing three and four hours a day in his retirement.
And I gave him a number of the things that I normally do with students, and he said, you have to write this down.
He said, I I haven't heard of these sort sort of things before.
Um, so he was really the the person who persuaded me to write things down.
And then it sort of grew from there because, um, a number of things I felt like I really wanted to get into and see if I could organize them because organization of the material is maybe maybe hardest thing about writing a book as you well know.
Yes.
And so I wanted to see if I could organize things well enough so that a student who never knew me and never took a lesson from me could open up the book and go through it step by step and hopefully get something out of it.
Right.
And the hardest book for that was the articulation book because as you know, articulation is the most contentious thing probably among players and teachers because we're talking about tonguing, and everybody's tongue is a different shape.
And the inside of your mouth is a different shape, and your dental occlusion is all different.
Your throat's different.
And so it's very hard to get just an idea of how to articulate one size does not fit all.
That kind of you know what I mean? So, um, the articulation book was, um, the most diff difficult one to do.
But all of the books, I did along with my students.
So I would give them ideas and give them, uh, exercises and see how it worked out.
And then if it worked out well, I'd try to put it in the book, you know, step step that way.
Um, and the and one of the hardest was things was the embouchure book because I was working with students on embouchure, and I noticed that, um, their embouchures were looking better and better.
They were really looking, like, textbook conferences, like, look Great.
But they didn't sound better.
And sometimes they sounded worse.
And I thought, what why is that happening? Because they look so good.
And I realized that they were making such a focus on their lips as a position of everything that they weren't blowing very well.
So so I realized that you really can't teach embouchure without teaching airflow in the way you use the air.
And so that's why the in the embouchure book of all things, there's all kinds of of, uh, breathing exercises and support exercises, which is the book here? They are now.
That's articulation.
But the Oh, this articulation.
Okay.
Yeah.
The embouchure book looks like this.
Okay.
Alright.
There we go.
Yeah.
Okay.
And, Yeah.
So it has a lot of, um, uh, things about breathing and blowing and that sort of thing because, you know, an embouchure is just a sort of means whereby, but the air has to really be working.
And if it doesn't, then the embouchure doesn't help.
Well, I mean, to tell me if this if it's if I'm hitting something that that that relates here.
The embouchure really only functions to get the read vibrating correctly and get it in our oral cavity set the way we want it.
Right? So there's there's things that are happening there.
And so it, like, I think just go into what you said having to having someone focus on what it looks like is not necessarily the same as having somebody functional focus on what the function.
Like, what's the outcome of this? Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You're absolutely right.
Yeah.
It it seems like it's a very simple kind of job that the lips do.
Actually, it's more, as you know, it's more complex than that.
And so, um, it does take more work than you'd think to make things really start to happen.
Ambersher was.
And, of course, there's all the interior stuff.
Right.
And that interior armature is so important.
And yeah.
So Did you ever learn double lipped when you were, uh, like, younger? Yeah.
Is that how you started? Um, no.
No.
Um, but I play double lipped every day.
Yeah.
Um, a little bit of some of it.
My lips are relatively thin, and I've never been able to really get into it for, um, performance.
Right.
But I think it's a great tonic.
So I I played double lip.
I I start out with double lip.
Every day.
And then I then I go to single lip from there.
Um, I actually worked, um, uh, with double lip with Dave Weber.
When I was a student at Oberland many, many, many years ago, It was my undergraduate work.
Um, there was a a one of my colleagues there.
Her her name was Annie Lenoir.
I don't know if you ever met her.
Uh, she was a very talented clarinetist and a real character.
And she said, you've gotta go to New York with me at spring break, and we're gonna take some lessons with Dave Weber.
And she was actually quite a talented player, but she knew him from from before.
Right.
So, So I did adjust that, you know, state it's a YMCA and took, like, a whole series of lessons over like a four or five day period and would go home for the rest of them of the, um, of the break.
And he would give me exercises to do for the next three to four months be between times that I would see him again.
And, um, and one of the things we did was double lip, and it was very difficult for me because as I said, my my lips were thin and it was it was very hard.
But, of course, what it does is it strengthens the lips.
And that's, I think, very, very important.
And when we talk, if you ever wanna get into to biting, oh, boy.
That's now there's a can of worms.
Yeah.
It is.
But one of the things about biting is that the lips usually, and when the student is biting, lips are usually very passive.
They aren't u they aren't their strength hasn't been developed because they're using the jaw pressure to make the to engage the read on the mouthpiece.
Um, but at any rate, so Dave Webb was the first person who's encouraged me to play double lip.
And then many years later, and I had played it on and off, you know, four years after working with Dave.
Then many years later, I worked with Cal Operman.
And this was in mid career because I actually I went to him because I had a hand injury.
And Paul Garman told me that the birth best person for any kind of injury was was Operman.
And he was, but the first thing he says, we gotta work on your embouchure.
So he made me play double lip at all of my lessons.
And, um, by that time, it was not quite as foreign and difficult as it had been in undergraduate years, but but, uh, it was a challenge because my lips are thin and they stay that way.
You know? I started my in fourth grade playing double lipped.
Oh.
And I didn't no one told me that that was well, you know, I just said that's thought I thought that's how you play the credit for probably about three years.
And no one ever no one ever said to me, oh, you're playing double lipped.
No one ever said anything.
Then finally one day somebody was talking about it that they're talking about putting your teeth on the mouthpiece, and I was like, What? Yeah.
And and but then then here's the getting to this biting conversation.
We'll just I'll just graze it right now.
Okay.
The I figured out.
I would I was I was in I was in my career.
I was playing professionally.
Yeah.
I I I won't I'm I'm not gonna highlight where this problem identified itself because that for still be embarrassing to me.
But I realized, uh, my teeth weren't actually always in contact with the mouthpiece.
Like, I wasn't biting at all.
Yeah.
And and it was it was causing some problems.
Like in in the Altissimo, I I do uh like on c sharp on the e flat clarinet or on e, the same note, right? Like, I I would squeak.
There would be a little chirp.
Not a full unsqueak but a chirp and I couldn't figure out where I was coming from.
Uh-huh.
And after about eight months of changing mouthpieces, changing reads, changing ligatures, I finally figured out, oh, hey, wait a minute.
My teeth are not actually making contact with the mouthpiece or just just barely.
And and and it was I thought to myself, I guess I took the don't bite instruction too seriously.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, but I think it was also connected to me playing double lift when I was a kid.
Oh, that's interesting.
Very interesting.
Uh, you know, Marcellus used to call it a purchase.
You you need a purchase on the mouthpiece.
That kind of thing.
And I think it is lips, but it's maybe not a 100% lips.
There is something about that that teeth structure that helps too.
Uh yeah.
So so if if you had to, like, do something ridiculous, like, and give us the five most important things about your embouchure book.
Like, what what what like what would you say? Yeah.
I'm a sure book.
The five most important things.
No.
Or 10 or whatever whatever you.
Wow.
Well, well, let me let me ask the question a little bit differently.
What do you find is the most helpful and most frequent instruction that you give people with their embouchures.
Oh, with your oh, my gosh.
Um, well, that that's a difficult question because I do think that every embouchure is unique.
Uh, and I think we all have to find the way, I mean, and only only the individual can feel his or her lips as well as they need to to make those final decisions.
I'll give you one example.
Um, when I was working with giuliani, He talked about tucking the upper lip against the teeth and then pressing that massive lip down into the mouthpiece.
And that was one of the most important things that he talk to me about.
And that's in the Amazhoot book.
So maybe that's one.
Maybe that's one of the most important things.
Um, because it begins to replicate double lip to some degree.
Uh, because it tends to allow the throat to open naturally and easily without being forced to open.
And, um, and it gives a lot of stability to the upper lip pressing down.
And there are clarinetists including, I'm trying to think of a guy who used to play first in Saint Louis.
Um, um, anyway, there are people who feel that the upper lip is really more important than the lower lip when it comes to them, to the to the embouchure.
Um, but One example I was gonna tell you about the upper lip was that you, you know, Andy Lamey.
Mhmm.
Very fine player in town who plays in New Jersey Symphony.
And, um, we were talking a little bit about upper lip in the way we tuck it against the teeth and press it out.
And he said, oh, man.
It's the easiest thing in the world.
You just do this and do that and it done.
And I and I didn't say this.
What I meant to say, you've got very strong thick lips.
Uh, how nice for you.
But it's it's not quite so easy if your lips are thinner.
And Giuliani, when he was teaching it to me, was very, very consistent and persistent, uh, making sure that when I stood in front of his mirror, I have every lesson that he saw absolutely no red of the upper lip that I if any any red of my lip came through, it meant I wasn't tucking enough.
And that was just my lips.
There are other other students that had much thicker lips.
They would be able to tuck beautifully, but see a little bit of red.
But for me, he couldn't see.
He didn't wanna see any red at all.
And he was so persistent about that.
That's one of the things about teaching that I think is so important that we, um, we've we become persistent about certain things that we know a student really needs.
And they may, him and Hall, and they may wait around and they may do it halfway, but you have to sometimes be so persistent about making it really happen.
For me, in my own sort of teaching of myself and in teaching of others, so many of the things that feel natural or feel like this is how you play the clarinet are established before you've ever really thought about playing the clarinet very seriously.
For me with the double up embouchure that imprinted on me, this is what it feels like to play the clarinet.
Mhmm.
So changing that felt like I was no longer playing the clarinet.
I didn't really know that that was so important to me.
But it was.
Right? Like it it like it it's interesting like how we hold on to things.
There was a habit that was formed haphazardly.
Oh, oh yeah.
I mean, I think sometimes the first time a a student blows this you know, they they're what? They're in their fifth grade or something.
And they they got a clarinet, you know, and they put it together, and the teacher says, now here's your read.
You put it on.
Now now blow, and they go, and they get nothing.
Nothing.
Nothing.
And then and then teacher says use a little more pressure on the reed and there goes their jaw pressure, wham, and they get a sound, and they immediately remember that because it's like, uh, they had a victory.
They have they have a sound.
And that sound came from usually jaw pressure.
Because the jaw is so tremendously powerful, and the lips are relatively very, very weak.
But in in in clarinet playing, we have to strengthen the the weak muscles, the lips, and we have to lift the jaw pressure forget about it.
You know, go to sleep and and don't wake up.
That kind of you know? So it's counterintuitive.
And I I think much of planet plane is counterintuitive.
Now a question I have for you that that I've never asked anyone before and and I'm springing this on you.
So I I I'm interested to know about this.
Like like the different length of a mouthpiece opening.
Does that have any implication about somebody's embouchure and what they're doing, what a person might like or not like in terms of the how how how long the facing is.
Yeah.
Right.
It used to be the long facings were usually with relatively close tips.
Right.
It went together, you know, relatively one zero two tip with a a longer facing.
Uh, and then the, uh, the more wide open tip would have a tiny bit shorter facing.
That's all been changed with some of the Van Doran models.
But but for many years, that's what it was.
And I always felt I mean, this is just my personal response to it.
I always felt that I I felt the relative thickness of the tip much more I mean, uh, the retless have openness of the tip much more than the length of the facing.
Does that make sense? Yes.
There was something about the response of a one zero two opening that was so much different between that and a one thirteen opening, shall we say? You know? Right.
And of course, you had to use a different read as well.
But that response was so different that I found myself, uh, focusing more on the tip of the mouthpiece and the opening of the tip.
Than the length of it.
Whereas length, I'm wondering, I'm and this is just one of my, you know, these old wives tales you have that you carry around with you.
But length, I thought had more to do with the sound of a mouthpiece.
That if they were longer vibrations, you get a different kind of quality of sound, sometimes more complexity because of the length of the mouthpiece.
But whether that's an old wives tale or not, I'm like what Well, I I'm all for it.
You know, uh, I'm kind of searching very passively, but but about if the resistance comes from the the tip opening versus the resistance coming from the long facing versus the resistance coming from thick rails, or from somewhere inside the mouthpiece, what is the actual practical difference in that resist the the existence of that resistance? Oh, well, that I think it's a personal thing, don't you? I don't get.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There are people who want a resistance setup.
And they feel that they need it.
Well, yes.
But but if that resistance comes from the tip opening, how is that different than it coming from the the length of the facing or the the width of the of the rails? Like, because this it all I guess works as resistance, but then as it's changing how how it's coming about and why would somebody lean towards one cause of resistance versus another? Good good question.
But but but we have all tried various, uh, various mouthpieces that have exactly the same facing supposedly.
Let's say, let's say a Van Doran m 13 wire.
We've all played a few of those.
Yeah.
And, um, they're supposed to have the same facing.
They're supposed to have the same tip opening.
The rails look identical, but some of them are resistant and some of them are not.
And some just play better than others.
Some just have better sounds than others.
So that seems to me to indicate more of the interior of the mouthpiece than than the rails or the tip.
Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we're we're plain mouthpieces that are supposed to be identical and they are not identical.
It's especially in resistance.
Right.
And so it's so very hard for me to to quantify.
Although I will say one, I will tell you one little story.
It's so hard to quantify exactly what's exactly working them out in your mouthpiece so you read or not.
This is a lesson I had with Marcellus, and I thought it was really interesting.
I I went in and, uh, what what happened? This was, um, this was when he was still in Cleveland before he went, you know, Chicago.
And you he'd say, oh, just go in there and and warm up and play a few scales and I'll be right back.
So, uh, I played a few scales and he came back in.
He was listening out in the hall, which he always did.
He wanted to know what things sounded like from a distance.
And he would he came back in and he said, You know? I think you have a very good read today.
And I like that mouthpiece, and I think your clarinet is just fine, but there's something about that barrel.
And I thought, how did you decide that there was a problem with my barrel from, like, from half a block away.
You know what I'm saying? You know, or even to pick it out up close.
I mean, like, like, you said, it's a very, very specific thing here.
Out in the hall someplace.
Right.
Um, so he said here, I want you to try this barrel that Hans gave me.
Hans's manic gave me.
And it was indeed a fantastic, amazing barrel.
What I didn't tell him was that the barrel I had was also from Hans Manning, but there were many barrels and then there were many many barrels.
And he got a great one.
But anyway, so the idea of of what is what is working and what is not is such a complex thing.
Don't you think? Absolutely.
Yeah.
So the individual has to find his or her own way to be comfortable with that setup and also to be able to like the sound at the same at the same time, which is a tall order sometimes.
What is the longest you've ever played one mouthpiece? Oh, gee.
I have to say that I really did go through a few different mouthpieces than Mark and Mark.
But we we all have.
That's why Haven't we all haven't we all mouthpiece madness.
Right? But I did have I did have a mouthpiece that I loved.
It was a casper.
And it was a Casper sixteen, which is normally quite open.
And do you remember, um, uh, Everett Matson? Oh, I never met him, but I know who he is.
Yeah.
And he was.
He he did, uh, mouthpiece refacing.
Right.
Um, and he worked inside a little bit sometimes too.
But he was a very, very nice man.
And, um, I this was in the Navy band.
So it was many years ago.
Right after my undergraduate years.
Um, and there was a, like, another clarinetist who played in the, uh, in the concert band with us.
His name was Rusty Mirasol.
And Rusty said, oh, you know, I just dropped his mouthpiece, and I think I ruined it because all it will do is chirp.
So and it was a cast for 16.
So I said, can I see it? And sure enough, there were two big, big gouges on there on the one of the rails.
Left rail, I think.
And I I put on a reed and tripped all over the place.
Just so everybody chirped on it.
But I said, rusty, uh, can I buy it from you? Because casper's even in those days, we're getting hard to find.
I mean, they they're not so easy to get.
So I can I buy it from sale or just take it? So he gave it to me.
And I took it to Mattson, and I said, look at this.
These rails are ruined.
He said, I think we can maybe do a little something with it.
He didn't go inside the mouthpiece.
He just refaced it.
And I I put that thing on, and it was a fantastic mouthpiece.
I I it didn't it didn't last forever, but I was so happy to have it for a while.
I tried not to tell rusty what happened to his mouth, but it's that he had given to me.
Well, I mean, well, somebody should tell Rusty if somebody offers you money for something, you just take it.
Yeah.
I guess so.
That's what I that's the lesson you have to learn from this one.
Right? Somebody offers you money say yes.
Don't give it away.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Come on, Rusty.
Getting into the articulation book.
Like like this this this book was super helpful to me because articulation was probably the most remedial part of I mean, I could function as a professional musician.
But it was still, like, in my heart of hearts, the thing that I knew was the weakest part of my plane.
Uh-huh.
This book was very, very helpful to me.
Oh, great.
Thank you.
Yeah.
It was it was it was he was huge.
And, uh, so I'm I'm wondering if you can talk to us about the this idea that like we talk about tonguing and articulation, like it should be the tip of our tongue to the tip of the reed.
Right.
Which which is I think in the abstract, probably a really good idea But I think a lot of people don't do it.
Yeah.
Oh, no.
Right.
Right.
And they have guilt.
Right? They're plagued by guilt.
Okay.
This is a very this is this is a great point that you're making.
When you say tip of the tongue to the tip of the reed, you're talking about two different directives.
Right.
One is to use the tip of the tongue.
And the other is to put the tip of the tongue on the tip of the reed.
Now there are people who can do that effortlessly.
But there are many of us who can't, and I'm one of the ones who never could.
And the reason why I've figured out is that this the length of my jaw from this place wasn't where you have the dog leg on your jaw, front, not your not the front of your chin, but where your teeth are.
Right.
This distance is short.
I have a short distance here, but I have a long tongue.
Now This means that I was never able to I able to get the tip of my tongue on the tip of the reed unless I felt like at the the the tongue was going backwards in a sort of an s shape in order to find that Right.
Get about it.
It was not possible.
And I I felt terrible about it for years.
So when I it was studying with Marcellus, I always had a list of things to ask him.
He wanted me to bring in a question list.
And I said tip of the tongue, dip of the tip of the reed.
I said I can I I can use the tip of the tongue, but I can't I can't put it on the tip of the reed? And he said, oh, I don't do that.
And it was it was one of those moments of Sartore, you know, in a lesson.
Where of years of feeling terrible and guilty about not being able to do tip of hand tongue to the tip of the read was all dispelled in a moment when I realized that I'm a man who had some of the most beautiful articulation I've ever heard Yes.
Also, tipped, uh, tongue, tongue a little bit farther down on the reed.
He used the tip of his tongue, but he tongued a little farther down on the reed because he had a long tongue and a short jaw.
And he had a big overbite as you know.
So, um, so as far as articulation is concerned, it's really I mean, it's a very nice directive tip of the tongue to the tip of the read, but oftentimes, we have to adjust it basing upon what the student is like, you know, uh, and what, you know, what the mechanics are inside the mouth? Well, I I wanna I wanna get your response to this.
I've I've always felt like getting our tone right has to have the the idea of where from where are we going to articulate? Where are we gonna tongue? And it needs to be in the same place.
Like our tongue needs to be in a place that is available for effective articulation while we're playing our most beautiful sound.
And to not put those two ideas together can oftentimes lead people into a place where they mean, and what I'm thinking of mostly when I'm talking about this is my adult amateur students, my adult kind of enthusiast player.
Like how do we get them to the point that they can articulate and tongue in a way that's comfortable and effective without losing their sound? And so I I try and teach it together in a way that means that you're using your sound, your best sound when you're articulating.
Right? Because that's what we all wanna do.
Right.
But but my my particular endeavor is to do this for people that are not children.
They're able to think and understand the concept and the idea of it.
Mhmm.
And and and I'm wondering if if if this idea has anything to do with anything that you've thought about or teach.
Oh, yeah.
We think about it all the times.
Absolutely.
Um, so the the goal is to be able to to produce a legato sound that's very beautiful.
And then from that legato sound, go into articulation and not destroy your sound.
Not have your sound get less than less beautiful than it is when you legato.
And to me, there are two things that happen.
I'm sure there are more than that, but two things that happen that mitigate against keeping your most beautiful sound when you articulate.
One is using a larger mass of tongue to touch the reed I really believe in the tip of the tongue.
And in this articulation book, we have, uh, the little, um, what do you call them? Um, coffee cup lids? Yes.
Of that tiny little aperture there, we put the coffee cup lid to your face and you put your tongue right through it and and through the aperture on the on the on the cap cap.
And what that does is that reminds you exactly what the tip of the tongue is.
Because I found that with students, many of them don't really know where the tip of their tongue is.
Especially when they're thinking about 16 other things and they're playing the clarinet Right.
They forget So that little exercise, um, of of using the the, uh, the coffee cup lid cap, um, tends to really bring your awareness to the tip of the re I just wanna I wanna make sure for the people that that that are are listening and and not and not watching.
You're talking about the kind that has the little rectangular hole already in it, not the kind that you peel up.
No.
It's not exactly rectangular.
It's like a little slot.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I mean, it's it's it would be very regular, but it's rounded at the edges.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Round around the edges.
Exactly.
And it's very small, and it just your the tip of your tongue fits right into it.
Right.
And it and the edges are a little bit sharp.
So the tongue feels that sharpness and that, you know, focuses your attention on it.
And the other thing that I think, uh, mitigates against your most beautiful sound when you articulate is closing your throat.
And when, uh, a lot of people start to articulate and you can hear it, it gets to sound like a little bit like this, they get that kind of quality into their sound ins because when they're moving their tongue, they're closing their throat.
And that's a very, uh, very common thing.
As a matter of fact, when I do articulation studies with students, like, you know, uh, Calopperman's chromatic runs that are articulated.
I always say we start with a yawn.
A very, very comfortable, easy yawn.
And you're not four you're not forcing the back of the mouth open.
Right.
Just you're making a yawn.
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's catching, isn't it? So you're just, you know, you're just keeping that that yawn.
Um, and then at the same time, you're working on the tip of the tongue.
So you can, you know, you can get the coffee shop, live thing happening then you can get the yawn happening and then you could try to put them together.
But to me, those are the two big things that really can destroy the sound when you are digitally.
Well, and the thing I like about this approach is it's not employing a great deal of thought or logic.
Right? I mean, it's all very logical, but it's but it's tactile and natural.
Right? And simple.
Yeah.
Right.
Absolutely.
Right.
I mean, it's it's it's things that that you don't have to use brainpower to employ.
Yeah.
I I I completely feel that we should use as little brainpower when we're playing as possible because but let's face it.
We have we have enough things to occupy our minds.
We have we have to play with other people.
We have to play in tune.
We have to play with good rhythm.
We have to get the right notes in the right place.
It's a lot to do.
And if I'm thinking, you know, um, uh, something that requires a lot of intellectual thought in order to make something happen, uh, from a technical point of view, forget about it.
There's just room in the brain to do that.
At least not in my brain.
Maybe No.
I'm I'm I'm a 100% on that.
Like, I, like, I definitely like to teach things that are things that people already know.
You already know how to yawn.
You already know what that feels like.
Right? And and and that and to go on instinct and intuition is far better than going on intellectual thought.
Oh, yeah.
Well, but but on the other thing, on the other hand, I think that the warm up is a great time to really get into the nitty gritty picky things.
So and and sometimes when you have a morning warm up, you know, it is times you do a morning warm up, you think, oh, my gosh.
I'm too tired.
I wanna do this.
Doesn't feel really great.
And you still get into nitty gritty picky things.
And then by the time the performance of rehearsal happens, you're feeling really great.
And you're not thinking of all those deep tails because you've already taken care of it.
You know what I mean? Right.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, I always think of a warm up as, uh, confirmation and a reinforcement of instinctual behavior.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and yet you're still beginning you're still trying to polish a little bit, those things, you know, each one of them.
You're trying to make a little bit better than it was yesterday.
Yeah.
But but but yeah, I I was I was talking to, uh, my my class earlier today, uh, just a few minutes ago about the warm up is a time to reinforce and get a little bit better, but you're not trying.
The goal of a warm up isn't to try and get significantly better.
It's to be in your best place to play the day.
Mhmm.
Right? And and make small small and small changes.
Right.
And they head up.
Yeah.
And and and to set yourself up for good practicing or a good performance.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
So Exactly.
Yep.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Now, um, the the these the next two books that I have, the the 32 etudes, the the Rose etudes, and the complete Daniel Bernard are both books that are I've gotten within the past year and a half I have so much appreciated having all of Daniel but not stuff in one book rather than several small books and I also think that there's a way that this comes out a little bit more.
Like, I I I had the Claredis compendium as a kid.
It's like a sixth grader.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I would look through it and I would try and read it and I couldn't make heads or tails of any of it because it was all written so much like you know from when it was from when it was which is not you know it was 1984 in Alaska, you know, like I'm in studying this book, but I couldn't really quite figure it out.
And so like I I appreciated that I only I not only got that book but all the other books in one.
And I really, uh, yeah, I just really appreciated having all this.
And I, like, how long does it take to put this together? Like, how long it's gonna take? This is very Oh, I I I don't know.
I'm guessing a year and a half.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
That's my guess.
And they they some of them were longer than others.
The articulation book took a long time because it's the most complex book.
And, also, organizing that material was a bigger a bigger deal than some other ones.
Right.
Whereas at first with the, um, the complete bond eye, we had we had much of that material already.
Right.
There's a story, and I'm not sure if this is true.
The Bonat had a, uh, photographic memory.
And much of the orchestra studies book was written out from memory.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Yes.
But there were at least a hundred and fifty two hundred things I had to change in it.
I mean, there were a lot as you know, there were a lot of a lot of little mistakes.
They were little mistakes, but I'm having a feeling that that he really did write that book for memory if you can believe it.
He was quite a guy, you know? At any point, you you met him or you took lessons or the I never met him.
He was before my time.
Okay.
Uh, but, you know, many of my of my teachers studied with him.
Right.
Okay.
And, um, and he played in the Philadelphia orchestra.
And when I studied with Giuliani, He, uh, we were doing beta one sixth.
And Giuliani said, oh, I have something to show you.
And he brought out his part, Philadelphia, orchestra part.
Um, Bonard was a, um, he was an artist and he loved to do little, um, uh, sort of graffiti art sort of kind of.
And so the beta one six would start with, uh, a tree and a branch, and all all all written on the side of the pa of the page of the music.
A tree and a branch and a little bird on the on the branch of the tree.
And the bird is singing and very happy, you know.
And by the second movement, the bird is, uh, lying down a little bit.
Third movement.
Uh, and so later on, for each movement, the bird is getting tireder and tireder and tireder and finally gets the last move with the bird is on the ground.
You know, like, it was x's on his eyes, you know.
And it it was Bharat's comment about the fact that the beta sixth is a very demanding and tiring kind of piece to play as we all know.
Right.
But, anyway, um, so Bonat was really quite a guy.
And, um, I I have one other story about him although Maybe I'm I hope I'm not going too far field.
I talked to one of the things, uh, I I talked to, um, Mitchell Lurry about Daniel Naught, and and Mitchell Lure was one of Bernard's favorite students.
And I said I heard a story about why Bonad was fired from the Philadelphia orchestra.
I believe he was actually fired once, and then they rehired him back.
But the first firing was Uh, I said I heard this story and I can't believe this is possible that, uh, Bernard and Tabito of the principal Obas were having a fight during the rehearsal.
And Bernard, who always had a newspaper with him and whenever he didn't have play was always reading the newspaper in the rehearsal, uh, wadded up his newspaper and put it under, uh, Tabatose chair and lit it.
I said, can you believe it in a rehearsal? This is why he got fired the first time.
And I said to I said to mister Leary, I said, would he be capable of that? And mister Larry said, oh, yes.
He would be.
So anyway, he was quite a character.
I hope I'm not defaming him by telling those.
Well, no.
I mean, I I think that I mean, anything we can do to add to the lore, whether it's true or not, I think it's just is the good thing to do.
I heard it from two or three sources.
That's why I asked Mitchell Lurry about it.
That's amazing.
And so now I've got a lot of questions about the the the Rose.
Yeah.
Because that, like, you have done something that, you know, I I I'm doing I I I started this without seeing the book.
Like in in one of my in my in my sort of advanced class that we're doing, uh, in in my online program, we're going through the Rose etudes and I'm creating basically what what the same thing you've done.
I mean, I I I put the etude in Sevelius and I put my own stuff in it and then I write uh reductions of it and practice techniques and I go through and go.
Yeah.
Like I go through the the harmony of what's going on to try and and give give a lot of stuff.
But what's what's been fun for me is I'll do the whole process of putting my own dynamics in and saying what I think is important about it.
And and oftentimes I I I I've got a lot to do in my life and I'm I'm doing it as sort of what I do right before bed.
And so I've got my computer, my laptop in, I'm doing all the stuff.
And then this stays right next to my bed.
And then when I get done, I think, okay, what did Larry say? I wonder if I got it.
I wonder if I got it right.
Well, I would like to see your comments and then I'm sure I would learn a lot from yours.
No.
But but but it's it's it's been very fun to feel like I'm going through these with a friend.
I mean, like, it it's it's been it's been really really wonderful for me because like it's given me a chance to go through the etudes and far more in-depth because I've I I'm building a program that I want to be durable for many, many years and provide great information.
So I'm I'm doing my absolute best to create materials to help people learn the music, learn the clarinet, and really sort of you know, come away with it with with a lot of stuff.
And I I, you know, working with individual students, I would never be able to take that much time to to do that.
Uh, but, you know, but to to to see what you've done, I was I was talking to to to Cameron Haws about it.
And and it's we were just talking about how great it is to have the etude on one page and in the instructions on the, like, you don't have to, you know, on the full page.
It's it's incredible.
Uh, it's it's it's really fantastic.
Talk to me this came about.
It just literally sits next to my bed.
Like, like, I I and I and I I I look at it at night, you know, and I I and I admire it.
Oh, great.
Thank you.
Well, well, actually, I, first of all, I wanna, do a shout out to Cameron because Cameron was so specific about every aspect of the etudes themselves.
And we, you know, there's like six or seven different ish additions over the years.
We went back as as as frequently as we could to Rose's first edition, and it's quite different from the many of the subsequent editions.
And the official edition that we all grew up with as numerous, um, issues within problems with it.
Well, I want I want you to feel free because it's if you don't answer it preemptively it's my next question to talk about those different additions.
Yeah.
Or they came about and just sort of like sort of fill in the what's actually rose and what's not rose.
Of course, it's all fairly.
Right? Right.
Yeah.
Network came from.
It's all fairly.
Yeah.
Um, but, um, uh, there are, I think there may have been certain things.
I I again, I'm assist supposing this.
I don't know.
Uh, but my supposition is that there were a number of things that Rose sort of took for granted that he was going to teach each student.
And he didn't necessarily, um, um, have to put it all down in in his copy of the fairlane.
Right.
You know what I'm saying? So for example, um, there are articulations that are in part of the a two, but they're not and but then when when the music, uh, repeats itself at the end, it's an a b a section, then the a section comes back in the articulation.
It's just staccato marks aren't there and that sort of thing.
And I I think one of those things was uh, Rose would say, you know, of course, this will be stragata.
I'll just like the beginning, you know, but it's not marked, uh, simile or anything like that.
You know what I mean? Yeah.
Um, I also think that Rose was very savvy about the use of the tongue in the articulation, the, you know, the articulation etudes.
And, um, when he has, what is it? Number 12, which starts in d minor? Do you do you do you do you do? Do you? Do you? Do you? Do you? Do you? Do you know that one? And it's all it's at sixteenth notes and it's all, um Yep.
Yeah.
That it's Floor 2, Floor 2.
Yeah.
Do you do you do you do you? Well, so, I mean, my sense and, uh, this is by, you know, teaching it to hundreds of people was that the the two slurs, do you do you do you or I as legato as possible so that when you get to the staccato, uh, notes, you are really playing them short, and you're making this much differentiation between those very, very legato slurs and the staccato articulation.
And I can't imagine that that Rose would disagree with that.
But who knows? I never met the man.
But Right.
You know, I think that he'd like to to to push the envelope a little bit.
The legatos are short.
The legatos are very, very long.
That kind of idea.
Right.
So it's one of the ideas that I put in.
I certainly I certainly tell all my students to do that, and I'm hoping I'm the right thing.
But Well, I mean, so much of it is really I mean, I think kinda going back to what you're talking about with the embouchure.
Like, what does a student need? But, like, like, what does a student need to learn from this? Mhmm.
There are certain things that each a two lends itself to learning.
Right.
But then but then you're dealing with the individual and what is it that's gonna be most useful to them to get from it at that particular point in time.
I think that that's I mean that that's what a skillful teacher does and I know that's what You do.
Right? Like, try to.
You know? But, of course, I think there are themes, you know, I mean, in each one of the etudes.
And Right.
And it's important to maybe emphasize that to some degree with a student.
This is what this is really about, what we're really gonna get into here.
Right.
Right.
Sure.
Yeah.
And then that's the thing that makes these etudes so great is that they're they're so musically related to other things.
Like like like the form that is so it's so clear and so, uh, skillfully realized in the music that it it's a good way to show somebody about form.
It's a good way to talk about how things happen, the differences that you're gonna make and how this is related to but not this exactly the same as when it comes back.
You know, all those are really wonderful things.
There's a lot of integrity to the etudes.
Uh, definitely.
Yeah.
And and a lot of things that yet to to to point out in terms of, you know, like I never heard of Sonata allegro form until I was in college.
And like to to nobody ever talk to me about form at all and these all have form.
Yeah.
That that is that is beautifully executed.
Mhmm.
I think so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh it it it's it's fantastic in a backwards way plugging my my class and I'm okay with that.
Uh that that like I make videos of all the stuff.
Alright.
So like the thing for me is, you know, I haven't worked on these A twos in a very very long time.
So I've gotta get my clarinet out and practice them again.
And and like that that's been part of what's been so fantastic for me in terms of your book and these etudes and what I'm what I'm trying to to put out into the world of my class because it's it's really forced me to as a grown up look at these etudes.
Because I mean, I learned these when I was probably a little too young.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and it yeah.
It's it's it's it's so difficult because a lot a lot of what I thought was was that of a teenager.
Mhmm.
You know what, like, I used to play a two number seven when people would come over to the house.
My mom would say, Hey, Jay play the clarinet for so and so.
Right? Yeah.
He was hated that.
So I'd always play a two number seven.
Yeah.
That that that that that was that was my piece.
Good.
Well, going back to 12, for example.
I think I corrected with this number.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The end of the first, uh, phrase of it is finally has articulation, but it's in the upper register.
That's a little little little of them.
You know what I'm talking about? Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll I'll put it on the I'll put it on the screen for the meeting.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So, um, so what it's really saying is that first of all, um, you have to have your embouchure working well, your air working well, your tongue working well for all those slurs do you do you do you do you do? Yeah.
But but you have to keep a lot for the very end and you can't shift all around.
You can't get lazy because at the end of that phrase, you've gotta be able to do an articulation thing.
It's going up to high c sharp e d, And it's gonna be clean and clear, and it won't be if you if you get a little bit lazy while you're doing all those slurs.
Did you see what I'm saying? Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, they they the lessons are built in.
Um, the teacher can sort of emphasize them so the teach as student knows what to what to expect, but they're really they're really built into the A twos, which makes them I think invaluable, really.
Every time I get into one of them and, you know, like, you would have no way of knowing this.
I broke my foot in April.
Ouch.
It was it was not good.
And the doctor told me that I I couldn't go back to work.
I don't know.
You probably don't know this.
I I also teach middle school music and band.
So, uh, I I was I didn't go back to work.
And so I missed the end of the year.
And what I did was did a lot of my work on these etudes and it's just like I might amount the amount of respect I have for this these etudes and and the work that you've done with them in this book is it's just overwhelming I sat with him for a long time because like I couldn't walk.
I didn't walk for a long time.
So I would sit in this very chair and just practice the clarinet and get on sebelius and write things down and and do a bunch of stuff and there's so there's so much there to work with.
It's it it it is amazing then to look at all the other great etudes that we have in comparison and make, yeah, they're not as good.
You know, there's a lot of great etudes.
Yeah, you know, undeniably.
But then you get to this stuff and it's that's super smart.
Yep.
You're very smart.
He's very smart.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I totally agree.
I'm I'm sorry you broke your foot, but it was probably great to have all that extra time.
For a while.
Okay.
It I tried to make the most of it, but, um, you know, the first couple weeks were great.
But then at a certain point, I, you know, had a knee scooter.
And so I was like scooter around my house.
I wasn't supposed to leave my house.
And to order all my groceries.
It it it became a little bit of it became I felt like I was I was having the pandemic all over again, but by myself.
Oh, gosh.
Okay.
So that that that wasn't.
Yeah.
I did get a lot done.
Got a lot done.
But it it didn't feel that good.
Didn't do great.
Yes.
You probably are just learning about my program about my I've got an whole online thing, the Clinet ninja.
You probably I I doubt you that you probably really spent a lot of time checking it out.
And that's totally fine.
But but I guess what I'm saying is that what you wouldn't know is that the the primary audience I'm talking to are adults.
And I'm curious to know, like, if you have any, like, I know you've worked with a lot of adults and and the person that inspired the early books was an adult.
Like what do you what do you find? Like, I find that adults can learn the clarinet very effectively and very very quickly.
Much much more than than than than kids.
Uh-huh.
But the but there seems to be uh an idea that learning an instrument as an adult difficult.
And I think that maybe from a a small motor function standpoint, that might be true.
Mhmm.
But it's so many other ways I find that it's not true.
Yeah.
And and I and I'm wondering if you have any ideas about things that adults can leverage in their adultness to learn the clarinet in a in a way that you couldn't teach a kid.
Oh, well, I totally agree with you about the efficiency that adults can learn.
And sometimes adults in their 50, 60, seventies can learn very well.
Um, and I think also they have a certain kind of, um, oftentimes a certain kind of attitude towards the instrument that they really wanna do this.
And there's there's that, you know, um, very straightforward kind of idea of how they're gonna work.
And of course, by by the time we're adults, we've learned how to work.
You know? And we've learned how how to not waste time supposedly or hopefully.
So I I have felt, um, a lot of gratification in teaching adults more so than I thought when I first started teaching them.
Um, because I thought, you know, the old idea, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Well, you can teach old dogs lots of new tricks.
Um, and, And I I I have always enjoyed teaching adults, uh, if they're really into it.
And they wouldn't be in they wouldn't be taking lessons from me.
They're really into it.
You know what I mean? I discovered during the pandemic and and working with adults like I want to build this into a community of adult players.
And yeah, Michelle Anderson has done that very successfully.
My my friend Joshki was on that.
He's currently doing that.
And and I find that that like I just I found so much inspiration from people that wanted to play the clarinet that it was it was the thing that my career had sort of beaten out of me was the joy of playing the clarinet.
Yeah.
All you have to do is be perfect every night.
Yeah.
And so so I so so, like, being around people that just simply love to play the clarinet, it's pretty great.
You know, and and, uh, it did it's still my favorite group of people and I'm always I always walk away from from the the sessions inspired and just overjoyed with how much progress people are making.
The whole thing is really a rewarding thing and and uh you know, if not for the horrible pandemic, I don't think I would have ever Yeah.
Come to the place that I am not to do it.
And then so I try and remember that because, you know, that that was a tough few years.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Especially in the New York area.
That was just awful.
You were you were gone by then.
Right? I was gone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was it was bad enough here.
We shut down.
And I'm in New Mexico now, and and we shut down everything.
And I still remember.
I I don't know if you ever had this feeling when we're everything was shut down that I would just get cabin fever of the worst sort that just drove me crazy.
And in the middle of it, uh, well, I live in Albuquerque and, uh, Santa Fe is about 60 miles away.
In the middle of it, I heard that there was a coffee shop open instead of fate.
So I drove my car a 120 miles round trip to get a cup of coffee instead of fate.
Just just to get out of the house.
That's how bad it was.
Well, I had a three year old.
But the the my my daughter was three when the pandemic started.
Oh, geez.
So, like, there there was, you know, we we had to get out of the house.
You know, we we would we would walk down.
I live in Riverdale and there's there's a a monument a few blocks from my house and there's space to run around around it.
We we would call it the Eiffel Tower.
Yeah.
And then we would go to the Eiffel Tower every afternoon about 04:00.
Yeah.
It's like it was it's crazy living in an apartment in New York with a three year old.
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very hard.
Yeah.
Hey, Larry.
Thank you so much for doing this.
I mean, it's really amazing to be able to get all of your wisdom and your voice in all of this.
It's really fantastic.
I really appreciate it.
Well, thank you, Jay.
I had a great time.
It was my pleasure.
Alright.
Thanks a lot, man.
Okay.
Take care.
Alright.
Bye.
Thank you, Larry, Guy, for all of that information and the wonderful conversation.
Uh, it's it's fantastic to reconnect with a friend who has moved away and is willing to come on and share a lifetime of secrets.
Yeah.
Maybe not secrets, but a lifetime of how full suggestions and ways to get better at the clarinet.
That comes from a lifetime of playing clarinet, teaching clarinet, and knowing just what to do and how to do it.
We'll see you next time on the clarinet ninja podcast
