1, 2, a, a. Welcome to the Clarinet Ninja Podcast. My name is Jay Hassler. As always, I'm doing my best to bring you the finest in clarinet information and entertainment. Today, I wanna say once again thank you to Mr. James Danderfer for playing this in. If you like what you hear, always go down to the show notes and check out James and the wonderful music that he makes. Uh, today, I'm lucky to have a friend of mine, we've been friends for over 20 years. Bleh. Wow. That's right. Uh, if we, if we'd had an adult child together when we first met, they would have, they'd be like a- A miracle. they'd be a, well They, they would also be, they would also be 30. Uh, this is my friend, Dave Sappadin. And, and we're here today to talk a, a lot about, uh, becoming your own clarinet player, coming from a real tradition of teaching. Dave's had some amazing teachers, some of which I share. Uh, and how you become your own player, and the equipment, the practice techniques that go along with it, in addition to taking on the role of educator and what that means, in terms of one's development, but also what it means to keep the clarinet tradition alive with young and old. Welcome, Dave. How are you? Great. Thank you. Happy to be here. Yeah. So happy to see you. It's been a while, actually, I would say. It, it has been a while. Yeah. When is the last time we saw each other? Dublin. That's it. That's right. That's correct, yeah. Uh, that, which was like a year and a half ago. That's right. Yeah. Oh, and it's funny, like we, we live probably 3 miles from one, one another and we meet in Dublin. I think that's, uh, one thing about New Yorkers, if you wanna meet a New Yorker, you have to get out of New York. Yeah. It doesn't seem like you have, get to see them in New York at all 'cause they're too busy. They're too, too busy, and that 3 miles seems like a long way to go. It's true. Yeah. And, and, you know, when Dave and I met each other, we were young, we were both married. Th- that's right. And- And in school. And in school, and we subsequently got unmarried, got remarried, and had children. And so, that gives us even less time. But here, but so, here's, here's what I, here's what I wanna get to. Like, uh, we were talking be- before we, we turned on the recorder, and we were talking about equipment, and which is always a thing, right? And you have, I'm just gonna say it, more of a lust for equipment than I do. And I'd love to hear, like, the host of clarinets you've played on, and why it is that you switched, and where you are now, and what you find in the clarinet that you have. Okay. Well, I, I started with, um, a Buffet R13. It was my very first clarinet that I started with, and, um, then I, uh, I worked my way to a LeBlanc Opus, an Opus LeBlanc, because of, uh, us studying with Ricardo Morales. And, uh, I s- and I switched because I was l- I was looking for more depth of sound, but I was also looking for more consistency with the intonation. To me, you know, I also, I played on a Concerto 'cause I couldn't afford the fancy one, um, but it d- I think that was a t- a real turning point in the manufacturing of clarinets, where all of a sudden, uh, what was accepted, in terms of evenness between registers, really the game changed. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And, and, and, and it was such an obvious thing when I went from one to the next. I was like, wow, this just became easier to play, it became easier to p- find the I didn't have to adjust as much, and, and there was a, a huge period of transition of having to learn to not adjust. I had spent all this time trying to make the R13 play in tune that, all of a sudden, when you don't have to do that anymore, and I was still doing it on the instrument and I didn't have to, so it took s- it took me a while to get used to not adjusting that. I, I, I wanna put a, a marker here to come back to this idea, uh, in terms of people learning the clarinet and what it means to essentially learn a habit and unlearn it later on. We'll, we'll get back to that though. And then, after, well, can, can I, can I, can I add into this story? Sure. There was the one, it's funny now, it wasn't funny at the time- when, when you'd had them for a long time and they got run over by a car, right? Oh, yeah It fell out of my case. I didn't realize that the upper joint of my Opus, uh, was slightly open, and it fell out of the case and the, into the street, and it had just been paved, so it was very soft sounding. So, I didn't hear it fall out of the case when I went into the cab, and then when I, I was g- actually going to get it repaired, and it was missing, and I looked, I'm like, "What's wha" So, I went looking around, and my super came up to me and said, "Hey, by the way, I, I, I noticed something on the street, and I picked it up because I knew it was yours." And I'm not really sure how he knew it was mine, but he, he saw, it looks like, uh, and then he said, "Okay, here you go." And it was just busted. It was awful. It's funny now, not funny then. Right. Uh, so, so then- I still can't believe I didn't hear it fall out of my case though. But, it, it's, it's it di- something seems off about the story, I don't know what but- but, but, but, but we'll let you tell it however you want. So, you played on those for, for quite a while. Yes And then, if I'm remembering, let's see if I get- Yes. uh, uh, let's see if I get your, you, then you switched to Backun. Yes. Yes. I switched to Backun. Uh, I was really excited when they, when they finally came out, and I was, uh, an early adopter for, for their, the barrels and the bells, and I was using that on the, on the, on the Opus. And, uh, and then, the, the instrument came out, and then I was, I, I was trying to figure out how I could afford it, and Backun helped me, um, more ended up helping me be able to make a payment plan to be able to make it happen, and, and finally I got the instruments. And, and so I, I was a, it was a, a cocobolo Backun, uh, MOBA, that's what it was. And, and you played on those for quite a while. Yes. And now you have recently changed to, well, it's kind of a new player, but not really a new player 'cause they've been making clarinet for years, but- Yes. a new, new in terms of the French system. Yes. Correct? Right? Am I- That's right. Am I telling this right? Yes. And, and, uh, I'm- I, I will say, I'm embarrassed try and pronounce the name because I know I'm gonna get it a little bit wrong, so l- It's a Uebel. Uebel? Uebel, I would guess that. Uebel? I might not even be saying it right, but I've, I've always known it just to be Uebel. Okay. I've played those instruments at the convention and stuff. I've never really sat with one for a long time. I'm curious to know what Because it's a wonderful instrument. So is the- Yes. the, the, so is the Opa, so is the R13. What, what is, what's- Well, it was, it was, it was funny because R- Ricardo wanted me to switch. He wanted me to come along with him. Okay. He didn't wanna go alone. And it was kind of funny that he w- it was right at the beginning when he was doing it. And he said to me, "I want you to try this and see what you think and compare it." And so I The person that picked the instrument for me was actually my wife. I- because I said to her, I said, "If you don't think that this sounds better than this instrument, then I will stay on this instrument." And so, in comparison, in a blind comparison, she picked the Uebel each time. And she was sad. Because it was a lot of money Well, well, and that's because clarinets have gotten expensive. Yes. Very expensive. It was over $7,000. Yeah. So I was, it was, it was an investment and then But it was, it was, to me, it was, it was, it was For me, I needed something a little bit more help when it came to focusing the sound. And the, and the, the MOBAs, I had to work hard to make that happen. A- and so for me, I was, uh, as a bass- Wow. I'm more of a bass clarinet player than an E-flat clarinet player. And so I'm, I'm always trying to get things up to pitch, and I needed something to help me with that a little bit more. And the MOBAs were made Uh, if you were an E-flat player, I could see the MOBAs being an incredible instrument for you. But if you're a bass clarinet player, I could see that that's an instrument that you'd be having to- Yeah. try to focus the sound. And that's where I'm, kind of like, where I was coming from. And the Uebels kind of have more of a focus of the sound to me that made it easier for me to achieve it. Tell me if you agree with this. Like, I always feel like when I'm playing an instrument that is, has more focus and traditional ring to it, it's on, it's more uneven than a clarinet that is even, has a, tends to have a darker sound, I think naturally speaking, uh, but also is harder to focus. Yes. I think those things go together. And I think it's one of those things that when, when, uh, when people are picking instruments, I think it's important to keep that in mind. Because, like, I still feel like may- maybe you fixed it with the Oboe, but, like, everything's a compromise. Yes. Right? Yeah. And it- it's- Well, it's, it's what, uh, what you're willing to put up with. Right. You know? You get this, but you don't get that. You get this, but you don't get that. And it's like a, it's a real, uh, uh, compromise sometimes of what you want. And this is what, what makes it easier for you to do what you do. So for me, it was easier to do what I did on, on, on the Uebels for me. It was easier for me to create music and, and be able to be, tap into more of the artistry than the nuts and bolts of trying to make the clarinet sound correct. Right. I mean, what, what's super ironic for me is I've ended up on an RC Prestige, which existed before all of this happened. Yes. But Americans didn't wanna play it. Yes. Super weird. Super weird stuff. You have been an incredibly successful teacher. And I know this because we don't really share a student, but a student at my school where I, where I teach is first clarinet in New York State. Yes. And we won't mention her name, 'cause we wanna keep her privacy. But hopefully she watches this and knows that we're thinking about her. Um, and I don't actually know her that well. Um, but I've also subbed for you and I've, I've, I've sat in front of your students and I heard them play really wonderfully. And I'm, I'm curious to know if, if you have any sort of magic to share with us in terms of how you get such great results out of students. I think, uh, sh- I, I, I really am, am truly an open book when I- You? I'm truly an open book to my students, to my friends, and I approach th- I, I, I, when I teach them, they really get to know who I am and the struggles that I have of daily life, of clarinet playing, of pretty much everything. And, uh, and I want them to know that, that it's, it's not just them that's struggling to, to do life's navigations, but that also ev- including myself. It's like, "No, I have the same things. I'm going through the same things." But yet, I still am finding time. It's, it's how I share my passion with them. Um, I think that's the number one thing is that they know that I'm on their team, and that I'm, no matter what happens, that they're not going to be yelled at in my lesson, and that it's, I'm sharing with them. I'm not, uh, uh, dictating to them, you know? I'm not just like, "Okay, well, good. This is the way it is, and that's it." Um, I believe that it's, um, just like we're hanging out. It's, this is kind of like feels like my, my, uh, lesson setting, how would this feels right now. It's how I feel it is every time I have, I have a, I teach my students. We have this kind of rapport, and I try to get into the, uh, I try to give them uh, a little break. I think the most important part is t- to know when they need to not play any clarinet anymore and need to talk about something that's not clarinet. And, and just, just to And I do that to clear the s- to clear the slate a little bit, to see if they heard what I said. So I distract them on purpose. And so I'll, I'll, I'll say something come totally not clarinet-related, just about something that happened with my son or me and tells a story. "Ah, ha ha," laugh, laugh, laugh. "Hey, let's hear that one more time," just to see if they listened to r- to remember or do they go back to what they were doing on autopilot. Right. And I catch them. And so sometimes that happens. And, and so I think in, it's important, uh, for me, it, uh, I do a lot of modeling. I do a lot of, of trying to play and put, play for them and, and show them what I'm all want them to do. I, I do a lot of, "I want you practice this way, and I'll show you why my way works. Let's try my way, and let's see how far along we can get doing what I'm asking how I want you to do these things." And so a lot of time, it's the, uh, it's a th- there's a disbelief because, uh, the way that they were told from other teachers, it doesn't always match up with what I'm asking for them to do. So, so they go back to what their old teacher said. And then they come back and doing exactly the way they did, and I'm like, "No. Well, well, did you a- did you do what I asked you to do?" And most the time, it's no. It's frustrating, I must say. But, um, each time I have to show. It's, it's, it's kind of like when, when, when Yoda showed Luke Skywalker of how to lift the X-wing from the, from the swamp. And yet you still have to show the power of the master still has to be shown for the student to go, "Oh, now I believe." Well, well he, he He wa- li- listen, like, I think that you're bringing up, uh, uh, something that is true for all of us, right, which is if you have a teacher that you really believe in, and then you move on to another teacher that you also believe in, there's an internal conflict if those teachers are saying things that either are different or seem different. Yeah. Right? 'Cause it, they, 'cause sometimes it is different. But sometimes it just is a different vocabulary. Sometimes- Yes. it's, it's, it's just a slightly different thing, uh, that they're trying to get even something very nuanced to be different. But it is hard to, to let go of those things. Mm-hmm. And I, and I do think that, that, um, your personality has a gravitational pull that, that, that, that I think can yank people a different direction. I try. Yeah, yeah. I try. Um I try to get them off that. Right. A- and, and say, "Hey, we're together now, you know? We're, we're gonna savor the flavor a- of, of me for a second, and we're gonna try to try my way for a second," you know? I do think that, that a lot of people feel like they're in a position where they need to renounce, like, that, uh, th- what, what I used to believe is no longer true, which that's not true. No. Right? I mean, you, you're successful because of those things. And it reminds me of when I would, was doing like a lot of, uh, you know, self-help sort of self-betterment sort of studying. And, uh, and they would talk about the idea that what got you to this point might be what's holding you back from the next thing. Mm. Like, like it could be those very things that made you successful to where you are that are preventing you from further success. And I think that that's, uh, that's something that I think happens when, when You know, because most of the kids, most of the people we're talking about are high school aged kids. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And some college. I have, well, a lot of c- uh, now I have 7 students at, at, uh, Montclair State. Right. So that now, I'm, I'm doing, I'm And this is the most I've had at the, at the school. And it's been a journey being in charge of someone else's path when you're still kind of worrying about yours. Well, I, I mean, that's, that's one of the things I've thought for a long time is like the There's a moment where I realized I remember my dad being this age. And then thinking to myself, "I don't have any idea what's going on." And maybe he didn't either. Right? Yeah. You know? And, and I think, I think that's I, I think if anyone feels like they- they've reached the end of their journey or that they, you know, that there's no further growth to have, I think then that that's probably not a person that- 'cause he's gonna be a good teacher, really, I mean, in a lot of ways. What skills do you find after you've got a lot of data points? What skills do you find are the most challenging for people to really take in? The difference between support and volume. Okay. I think that's number That's really difficult to under, never You can say that, and it makes sense when you say it out loud. But it's another thing, like, you know, someone told me one time, like, "Hey, by the way, it's really much harder to take the weight off than it- to keep the weight off than it is to take it off." And like, when you're in the process of doing it, thank you very much. Really? There are, uh, and, and, you know. And then when you're in the middle of it and then you realize that, then you're like, hey, it really is difficult to keep it off. You know? But now, it's not a master of the obvious 'cause you're living through it. But it's, it's kind of funny 'cause when they first said it too, I was actually upset. When someone would tell me, I was actually pissed off about it because like, thank you, master of the obvious, but it's not. It's When you're living and walking in those shoes, it's another story. Well, I mean, clichés are clichés because the lived experience makes it so crystal clear. Yeah. Right? But clichés are also annoying because, um, they're, they, they can be, you know, like that. You know, a, a lot of people in, in my ecosystem are adults who get information from a lot of places. And I think it's one of the things that y- you know, I don't wanna start selling my program in the middle of this, although I will, is that, you know, having somebody guiding you is really, really important, right? Because in, in all of that When you're trying to play the clarinet, you're trying to do lots of different things at once. And it's really important to have somebody who has a lot more experience to say, "Great, focus more on this one thing- Yes. right now." And, um, and, and, and, I, I love the, the idea of, of support versus volume, right? Because a lot of people do. And, and I'm sure I have. "Just blow harder," right? Because a lot of times when we're grow- Y- yeah. when we're growing up "Use more air." Right. That's the classic. Yeah. That's what people always get to hear. "Use more air." You're like, and then I always got pissed off. I'm sorry to cut you off. No, that's okay. I always got pissed off when they were saying that when I was playing piano. "Oh, well, play soft here and use more air." I'm like, "How is that possible? How am I supposed to use more air and play softer?" And it was, it, and, and it wasn't until later on that I understand the, the idea of the speed of air and, and versus the volume of And, and that, that's, that's the thing, is, is controlling the speed of air and at which the intensity at which you're bringing the speed of air out. And that, that level of it is, is, is, is the game changer between the 2, you know, to understand them both. 'Cause a lot of times people, "Use more air," so then they only think that they're supporting the sound when they're playing loud. But what happens when you play soft? You, you know, and, and that, that issue is, is, is, is, is where the, "Well, I don't understand between the support and the volume there," you know? The thing that I used to think is, why do band teachers say stuff like that? But then when I have now, in one of the sections of my life become a band teacher, get why they say that. Because you need a result right then. And if that gets you a result right then, that's your, that's your goal. Yes. Yes, yes. And, and so it, it I think it, that does become a, a real situation from somebody who's plays well in their band, but then decides to take another step further and start taking lessons and start really pursuing it. There is an important difference there. And I think that's one of those things that the skill that got you there is gonna prevent you from getting there. And I, and I think that that's, uh, where you're unlearning something. Unlearning seems a lot more difficult than learning. Yeah. I guess you're right. 'Cause this becomes a habit and you just You don't even know you're doing it. You don't even know you're doing it. Yes. It's hard to, to undo that. And so until you start hearing the changes of intonation and quality of sound issues that happen from your changing, which is, which is what the, what the instrument ends up, uh, which the instrument change highlights. A- and so then you start to hear, "Oh, I don't like that sound." Well, the If somebody's gonna make a change in their sound, they have to be listening to it as if they haven't heard it their entire life, like this. 'Cause you know who I've heard play the clarinet more than anybody in the world? This guy, right? So some things that are weird- can get past by because I'm just so used to hearing them. Yes. Right? And I, and I think that that You know, going back to the idea of modeling for people, I mean, that, that's where they start to not hear it. I remember the first time I went to play for Ricardo, he was living on 60th Street or so in a very small apartment, and I just remember hearing him play and thinking, "What the heck is that?" 'Cause it was so much different than anything I'd ever heard before. And to be hearing it that close, it, it was one of those It was startling thing. Uh, and you know, and again, going to that idea of sort of changing from one track to another track and adopting a new idea, it was really hard for me to be like, "Okay. That's the thing now." Mm-hmm. 'Cause you know, then I went back and I practiced and practiced, practiced, practiced, then auditioned for school and got in. Then that, the, the That's just the beginning of like, really being able to hear that in my own playing. And there would be times where I remember I was at a lesson with Ricardo and he goes, he goes, "Yeah, sounds good. But when you go from F to G, the color totally changes." was like, "What? What are you talking about?" Oh, yeah. And then, and then I went home and I, I, I recorded myself and I listened very carefully and I was like, "Oh, yeah. It's actually happening." But I would've never known. Right. You know, and, and to, to be honest, we're talking about a super nuanced difference at that point, that maybe most people wouldn't have noticed. But that, I feel like, is the thing that Ricardo does better than anybody else, is hear. Like he hears what he wants- Mm-hmm. on the clarinet more clearly than I've ever experienced with anybody. I mean, you know, granted, I mean, there's probably a list of another however many people that do it on that level. I just haven't spent that time with them- Oh, yeah, yep. to actually see them do it up close. But, uh, you know, I think that that's You know, when somebody is trying to change their sound, I mean, uh, agree or disagree then I'll stop talking. Yeah. As long as you agree. Uh- That I think when somebody is trying to get that difference between blowing harder and supporting- Yes. a lot of it is actually being able to cue into what they actually sound like. And, and, and, and also the, to go along with that problem- Right. which, uh, is, is, is more about what they know the sound to be up close versus what it sounds like a little bit distant far away from them. And the, uh, what they're trying to achieve up close doesn't necessarily translate into what it sounds like in the hall and to the distance. And so they have to, in order to Uh, there's one Sometimes in my lessons I will say to them, "I know I sound this way this c- when you're sitting this close to me." I will make them s- walk up and go a distance from me and I will play exactly the same way, and the look on their faces of like, "That does not sound the way you sound like up close." I go, "Yes, correct." And that's the beginning parts of changing what they hear, 'cause you have to change their ear to what they w- what they're supposed to listen to up close instead of trying to create this warmth of sound, and trying to create this, "I'm trying to get this warm sound." No, no, no, you're not. You're trying to create focus, and then as it expands into the hall, then you get warmth of sound. But when you create warmth of sound up close, that's when it gets diffused as it goes further away, and you start to Only the flute players and the orchestra get to enjoy your beautiful sound, and no one in the hall can hear you. You're too dark to be able to project. You're too warm and too rich to be able to cut through the orchestra. There's no way you're going to be heard. And it's always interesting to me when I hear people up close and when I hear them far away how different they sound. It's crazy. And I think they don't understand that, and no one really points that out to, to the students before they get to me, un- until I show them about what Show them this little bit, and I make them go different distances so they could hear how different my sound is as See, now this is the distance, uh, 3 people away from me. This is the distance 5 people away from me. And each time they go further back, it just sounds different and different and different, and they're amazed. And say, "Wow, I didn't think you were s-" It's like, uh, and a lot of times, like, uh, "I heard you the entire time in the concert. You're, uh, uh And I know you were playing piano." I said, "Oh, do you really think I was?" 'Cause I was probably playing mezzo piano just to get it out there, that, that by the It gives the illusion of piano, except you're capturing the essence of the dynamic. It doesn't nec- There's nobody in the gauge, with a, with a dynamic gauge in the hall saying, "Oh, you know what? That was not an official piano." But sometimes you just need to create contrast, and that's all you need to do. "Oh, this is softer than this section." Great, nailed it. You don't have to worry about it being piano. Anyway I, I, I, I want to pivot this into your aha moments. An aha moment I had when I was studying with Ricardo, he said, "You know, dynamics, a forte, is a color as much as it is an actual decibel amount." And he said, "You know, if you hear a marching band from a distance, they're not loud, but you know they're playing loud." Yes. And, and, and, and that, and that was, that was an interesting sort of like, you know, like, "Oh." You know, Ricardo, Ricardo told me, and I'll never forget, he, he goes, "Hey, Dave." He was frustrated with me, he said- "You know, Dave, um, you know what a good clarinet sound is? Why don't you just make one?"And I thought that was But there's a lot of genius behind that statement because he's right. I just laughed and I- I- I told him to take it easy, take it easy, and both of us started laughing. But still, um, he was right. There- there is a level of that too, you know, where you- you actually do know, we get so involved in- in- in the notes and the notes in front of us that we- we lose sight, we're in survival mode. And we- we forget about trying to, "Oh, wait a second. I'm supposed to make this sound pretty." Well, yeah, well, here's- here's what I- what I take from that is when I- when I hear people that are trying to do everything they know how to do, which is all of us when we're trying to play the clarinet, that if there's something that you're working on, whether, you know, from the very beginning levels of like reading the right notes and knowing the fingerings, uh, and, or working on your articulation, what- whatever part of it is you're paying more attention to, it is hard to do all these things at once. Yeah. And if one is taking more attention, it's hard. Like you're not going to hear things. Yes. Right? And- and I think that that, um, also when I hear that story, I think to myself, if I would have just listened really carefully and been able to do everything Ricardo said in the first lesson he gave me, I wouldn't have needed any more. Because the rest of- the rest of the time, every time I've ever played the clarinet for him, he said some version of those same things. It is weird when somebody sort of smacks you in the face with- with- with something. That like- I'll say. Like- like it gets weirder when you're kind of more grown. Because we- we're- you, me and Ricardo were all within 5 years of age. Yeah. He's younger than us, which is just- Well, he's only younger by even 2 months. young. You're the old one. I am the old one. But- but- but- but it- it- it also, not so much now that we're all old guys with kids, but like- but- but when we were young guys without kids, it was harder to take it, like in- internally. Yeah. Right? 'Cause- 'cause he undeniably right and coming with the goods every time he picked up a clarinet made it worse. It made it harder to take in some way. I- I- for me, yeah, he- he used to schedule my lesson right before lunch, because he knew how depressed I'd be- after the lessons. And he won't need, tried to make me feel better. So he'd go, "Come on, we'll go to lunch now." And it was- it would always scheduled me for lunch. It was always funny. Okay. So here's what I want to hear. I- I- I'm springing this on you. Oh, and by the way, you're the first person that has come in for a live podcast in the brand new Clarinet Ninja Podcast Studio. I love it. Yes. Anyway. Um, you- you studied with Yehuda. Yes. Who it seems like everything that comes out of his mouth is an aha moment for somebody. For sure. Give me one of them from Yehuda. Yehuda does sneaky things. And- and- and in the way that he'll ask you to do something and you don't know why you're doing it, all of a sudden it gets better. And then he says, "There you go. The lesson's over." After you've gotten better from what he had to tell you. It's the one thing. You're like, you're like, "Well, there you go. Lesson's over. That was all you needed, buddy." And I'm like, "Wait a second. Okay, we'll keep going." But most of the time it was all air related. It was always, it was- it was everything was about The aha moment would be air, air, air. And we, and sometimes I would look at my write- old books from him, and it looked like he carved air, like he wrote it like this, air, like he was out of anger. I remember when- when I was picking a school in Los Angeles. Um, you know, I went to USC and he was giving a master class. And he said one of the funniest things I've ever heard. He's notably funny, I think. Oh, yes. Somebody was playing, uh, Dvorak New World solo. They play it, sounds great. And he says to a student in the audience, "What piece is this from?" And- and he, and- and- and the kid sort of very sheepishly said, "I don't know." And he goes, "Well, you have to know this one, and if you don't know it, I don't know isn't the right answer. You say, 'It's on the tip of my tongue.'" Oh. 'Cause I never- You, you- I never, I never ended up I actually have never met him. Which, which, which is weird. Huh. I, I think it's weird. I've met a lot of people in the clarinet world. I've never met him. Oh, he Well, 'cause he's so busy, that guy. Well, but I- He's crazy. I mean, I've met a lot of busy people. I mean, like, it's just one of those things where it's like I mean, he's always busy. Yeah. He's, he's constantly traveling everywhere, that guy, yeah. Um, I just, just, I, I It's funny 'cause it's, I've been, I've been very far removed from Yehuda now. It's been, when I was, uh, studying with him was in 1986 through '90. So it's been a second, but I had to go one time. But I, I, I loved my lessons with him and, and Mitchell Lurie. I mean, both, both of them were, crazy. But, um, with, with Yehuda, it was just a bombardment of his innovativeness of, of, of teaching you. And back in the day, he would make us lay down on the ground and do long tones while his foot was on our stomach. And, uh, he would do things where we had to do a sit-up while we were practicing the long tone. He'd be like, "Up," and I have to sit up while I was playing the long tone. "Down," and I'd go down. Now, he doesn't do that. I heard he makes people go on a, um, on a exercise bicycle and do long tones. Nice. And, and as he's doing it, you're engaging the core as you're, as you're doing the as you're moving your legs. And, and he puts it under the thing, and you feel the So he's always in trying to engage the core, you know? Mm-hmm. He was But with, with him, it was just a bombardment of, of, of musical The thing for him was, was up when I was working on the Brahms sonatas with him and, and how much over the top that he wanted me to do, and I thought it was crazy. And I just thought it was too much, until I heard a recording of it and realized that I barely did anything. Well, it's, it's funny. 1, one of the things, you know, again, I agree with this. Um, the One of the things that I think is that when we're told something on a particular day, that thing is true. We're like th- But if you then you take it on and you do it, and then you start from that same place 3 years later, you're gonna be doing way too much, right? Because that instruction was good for that day to get you from where you were to where you should be. But you can't keep giving yourself that instruction. Otherwise, it would be too much. And I think I'm, I'm curious to know, uh, like again, I'm springing this on you. Reflecting on your own life, reflecting on your experience with your students, would you say that, like, there's a lot of times where if somebody does take something on and they do the thing, you have to say, "Now you can stop doing the thing"? 'Cause a lot of times, I'll end up saying the opposite- Mm-hmm. to somebody after they've done exactly what I've asked for. Because then it makes it seem like I'm, I'm full of crap. I feel like people have to learn where too far is. They have to live there. You have to live where too far is, and then bringing it back a little after that. So whenever someone does goes too far, I laugh, but I love it. And I want them to continue living there for a second, because they, they do the adjustment themselves. Because you can listen to it when you hear the recording like, "Oh, that's a little much," and then you just bring it back just a little bit. But I find that to just to get them to, in a general sense, to push them to this far is such a chore just to get them to go there and, and to play over the top ridiculous. Just to get them to go that, "Hey, let's see. Let's hear" Sometimes getting them to play louder. "Let's hear what ridiculous sounds like. Let's hear Play this too loud." You know? And then they'll play it, and I'll say, "That was mezzoforte." Well Mezzoforte. Every time I've judged a high school contest, people playing clarinet, a lot of really a lot of really good players. The thing that dictates who gets the prize is who makes the most dynamic contrast. Yeah. Done. That's it. And it's, it's funny because it's so consistent. Yes. And then I And, and that's where I think teaching and being in that position, being in that room makes me realize, "You know what? I'm not exempt from that either." Right? I- It's a good reminder that that's how we all are. I also think that the pandemic has ruined a lot of players. And, and the fact that th- t- their ability to pl- want to play out. And because of the fact it, uh, that, you know, you couldn't play too loud because, you know, "My, my sister's in the other room trying to study, and my dad's over here, my mom's over here. I gotta practice, but I'm gonna do it quiet so I don't disturb anybody." Interesting. And so I think because of that, been fighting that with the current students to try to get them, "No, no, no. You have to know what forte is. Let them come out. It's time to piss some people off in your house. It's time to play forte. You just can't play forte and expect it to only happen on the job if you never practice it at home. There's no way it's gonna happen. You have to, you have to Say, 'Okay, everyone, I'm gonna play forte on this run through.'" And it has to happen. And so I Oh, sorry. N- no, no. Uh, I'm- W- well, the thing that, that I wanted to sort of add in terms of a practice technique Again, please agree with this. Is that it's good to practice things that are radically different. Because- Yeah. in real time sometimes some stuff happens. It comes out diff- like, you need to be able to play the thing that you practice to play it a certain way. Yes. In order to play it that way, you have to practice it a lot of other different ways so you can intentionally play it that way, so you've got more s- a sense of controls over everything. And I think that that's a really good thing for us to remember, is that a lot of times practicing in a way that is different is gonna actually help us get what it is that we want. It's simply just trying to repeat what it is that you want and never go out of that box. Yes. Isn't It's gonna actually When the chips are down, when you're sitting in an audition or you're in a performance and something has gone differently than you expected it to and you're not in that place where it's your best place to do this one thing, which we're never gonna be in those situations, you don't have the wherewithal to turn the dials to get it where you want it. Absolutely. Yeah. I think also that, um We were talking about Oh, to go back a little bit. Sure. Um, you were talking about what I There was I don't really I- in my lessons, I don't worry about trying to get them through repertoire. It's not my concern. To me, I want to fix the clarinet problems, and I'm trying to do thi- I'm using the music as a tool to fix that. And so I What I find is that people are so concerned with trying to get through the next pie- the next piece, and, and I'm always l- like, "Yeah, but you The clarinet problems are still existing." And so because they're still there, the piece doesn't sound as good as it should, and so fixing the clarinet problems and using the piece to fix the clarinet problems, and then, uh, I find that, you know, I spend my I find myself teaching them to not accept. Interesting. And, and, and the fact that, that that's the issue with their playing is that they accept it because they say, "Okay, well, I played all the right notes and rhythms." I say, "Yeah, but did you Let's put it on as a recording? Let's put it on Spotify? Let's put it on stage? You ready? You nailed it?" No, what's wrong with it? It's not There's something else going on that's missing, isn't there? It's the, it's th- it's the clarinet playing. And so, uh, that's, that's a thing that I feel that my students still spend enou- they worry about the perfection of the music instead of the perfection of the clarinet playing. When we At a certain point in teaching and learning and playing the clarinet, playing the right notes at the right time, it's a starting place. Sure, sure. It is, uh, uh, but when, but And I think that's a change for a lot of students, right? Playing the right notes at the right time, that's the goal. That is a change for a lot of students Well, and, and, and, well, and, and i- i- it's a mighty goal at a certain point. Yeah. And still, like, but depending on what's in front of me, that might still be a mighty goal, but, but it's still just the beginning of when the music-making is actually able Not that one should separate it out and not do music-making while you're getting to that point, but it is, it is definitely a thing that I think surprises a lot of high school aged students particularly. Like, okay, great. You've met the, the, the minimum requirement by learning the right notes at the right time. But they, they, they're surprised that you have anything to say after they've achieved that greatness. Right? And like, after they've achieved the rhythms and all the right notes and everything like that, then it's like, "Okay, great. Well, here's what's wrong with it." "What do you mean what's wrong No one else is talking to me about what's wrong with it. They're just telling me how great I sound with all the notes and that I learned it and I have it up to tempo. What's the problem here?" Yeah. And I find that I have to s- then, the, uh, there's a disbelief in my, in my students that it takes a second for them to kind of get behind it. Well, I mean, to be fair, you are hard to believe sometimes. I am? That's true, too. Well, well, but also when I hear this, and, and I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm pulling on, on, on your effectiveness in your teaching, is that like there's a lot of Like, the idea that you're teaching kids not to accept things is sort of a negative thing, but you are so joyful in your presentation of clarinet and everything, I think you can give what's essentially kind of a, a negative frame to put something in that doesn't seem like it, right? Because everybody's laughing so much and everyone's having such a good time and they say You know, 'cause like, sometimes, uh Well, most of the time it's me laughing at them- Yeah. but, a- and then they'll And they know that And, and, and then they laugh along with me because they know that what I said was funny and ridiculous, and, and then they get onboard, and they realize, you know. Well, there's a lot of trust that goes along with that too, right? I mean, I think that, that's an important thing as well, and when somebody is an authentic person who's open and, you know, like, there, there's a lot of trust that goes along with that, and I think that's a really important thing. And I think that, you know, when you're working with somebody, of any age, we all need to take what we're doing very seriously, but perhaps not take ourselves too seriously. Yeah. And, and I think that that's, that's the, the middle ground where everything is, is okay. I, I try to let them, them know that I'm, I'm I, I let them in on what it is that I'm working on in my own playing, and say, "This is what I'm struggling with. This is what I'm working on now." And I'll, I'll, I'll talk to them about it, and, and they'll listen, and they'll hear me, what I'm saying. And, and not that I, that, um, you know, that this is coming from the mountaintop, that what I'm about, what I'm saying right now shall It shall be said, and it shall be written. It's, it's not really where, where I am with them, they know that. And, um, and, and there's sometimes where I don't have the answer, and we figure it out together. Right. And there's a lot of that sometimes, 'cause I'll like I show them how I come up with the answer. I'm like, "Okay, you know what? I don't know what the problem is here. It could be a couple of things. Let's try this first. Let's see if it fixes it, and then we'll try" Um, most of the time, funny enough, it's, uh, I find it's, uh, never embouchure-related. It's always air and throat related, or fingers. Interesting. And I find that e- the embouchure is over-emphasized, and I'm so pissed off about it. Every time I get a new student that's like, oh, th- look, it's not the embouchure. I can Uh, and I demonstrate. first thing I say, "Watch, I'm gonna play with an awful embouchure." So I'll do this, and And I'll play as beautifully as I can, and they'll all, "Look at that, wasn't that bad." I go, "Yeah, I know. Now, I'm gonna play with a perfect embouchure," and play and sound awful, and they'll look at me. And I'll go, "You see? It's not the embouchure. It's the way that you're putting the air in the instrument." If I put the air in the clarinet like this, ugh, that's what it sounds like. If I put the air in the clarinet, aah, that's what that sounds like. It has to do with the direction and the intensity of the air stream, and the embouchure is just there to help you with consistency. And the embouchure moves because the, it's making up for what the air isn't doing. So, you know what a good clarinet sound is, and when you don't hear it, you start adjusting the embouchure. But that's the quick-fix way. The real answer is, yeah, fix it with the air now. Don't change the embouchure at all, see what you can do about, maybe you All of a sudden you start fixing it with the air, and then you get projection, you get focus, you get resonance, you get, you get what, that sound that you dream of. All of a sudden, your reed sounds better, you know? And has nothing to do with the embouchure whatsoever. And then all of a sudden, the embouchure can just sit. If you hear what you wanna hear, then you don't have to adjust the embouchure. Then e- then the embouchure would never move. And a lot of times, it's like, connections of the fingers. "Oh, I put my finger down just a little hesitate. Oh, it didn't get That note didn't come out." But then, what gets blamed? The embouchure. The embouchure gets blamed. Not the fact that you didn't put the finger down or Appropriately. Or that you The connection to the fingers, fa, that you didn't go, "Oh, I, I, I, I mishit that key. Let me change my embouchure." And then not realizing it's the fingers. And so the, the, the fingers are the other things that was my biggest aha moment in my own playing, is fingers. Is how the fingers can change the quality of sound, and how it affects response, and how much I blame everything for my, what my fingers are doing. It's, uh, it's really annoying, actually. It still is. Well, we covered something here. I'm still rather pissed off about it. Uh, I, I, I don't want you to leave the, the first day at the podcast studio upset. At least not about that. I started getting upset just now. Oh. Relax. But, uh, but, uh, you know, the You know, in, in picking out the thing that really attracted my attention, I think the biggest lesson that, that we can give, as teachers, to anybody learning the clarinet, particularly younger people, 'cause a lot of older people have already figured this out, is that it's not about having the answer. It's about knowing how to figure out the answer. Yes. Right? And, and actually giving a young person the confidence to s- to That I don't know, but I'm gonna figure it out, is strong. I, I give them a checklist. Here's what you should check first. How's your support? How is, how is the air? What's going on with the air? What's going on with your fingers? What's going on in your throat? And embouchure is the last thing I let them check. It Once those things are taken care of, watch w- Do you need to worry about the embouchure? Most of the time they get though that, though that checklist and look, embouchure's last. They never get to embouchure. They don't have to. And then usually it's just taken care of. It's really unbelievable, actually Um, and, and, and they're surprised too, because they The answer or the way to fix the problem isn't what they expected it to be. Right. You know? They expected to have to do something with, with the embouchure, but-Most of the time, it's bec- they're ch- they're changing their embouchure for the l- for the improper playing that they're doing to fix. Well- To adjust it to the sound they want. So much of learning is understanding that you're fixing the thing that has the impact over the thing you're trying to fi- like, you're adjusting the thing that is gonna have the greatest impact on what it is that you're trying to change and it can get really hairy, but in, in all of it. And what I, what I've always found is that if somebody came in playing exactly like me, I could fix that stuff real fast. But, but it's hard for me to fix it for myself. Sure, sure. It, it, and, and it, and it's, and, and again, it, it, I see it all the time in teaching where somebody is reflecting to me that, "I, I have this same challenge." It's masked because I, in theory, play the clarinet better than the person that I'm, I'm working with, right? So it's not up, it's not up front and center. Uh, but giving, particularly high school kids, the ability to say, "Identify the problem. Be able to then deduce what the prob- what's causing the problem and then how to fix the problem," that's a transferable skill to anything that they want to do. Yes. And I think that that's one of the things that's really, really wonderful about studying the clarinet on that level, in that way. And I think that, um, it's- It definitely affects other parts of their life. For sure. The way they study, the way they are with people. It's, it's, it's pretty amazing actually. And, and I just had this conversation with one of my students today at a, at, before I came at a lesson and, and, uh, un- sadly they have senioritis 'cause they already got advanced notice of where they're going to school for college and now he's mailing it in. And so I just kind of like, well, like, and I said to him, I said, "Let me ask you, um, other than the clarinet, now that you've just like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm medium about this or I'm not, not into it right now." I'm like, "Okay. Now, so, is there anything else in your life that you're feeling the same way?" They go, "Across the board. Yes." And it starts with one thing, and you start to, with their like, "Oh, I'm gonna accept this. I'm gonna accept this." And then you start accepting things in other parts of your life and then you start accepting and it snowballs. And all of a sudden, you're not doing what you should in biology. You're not doing what you should be doing in your math class. You're not doing what you should be doing All of a sudden, "Ah, that C's okay now." Is it though? And then y- when you want to turn it on, are you a- are you All of a sudden, can you s- turn that switch? Y- you can't. You have to keep it at a certain level of not accepting what's not right for you and, and, and then, and, and k- and let it grow into when you, all of a sudden now you're a freshman in college and you let that grow. "Now, I'm out of school," and that, each, and it just keeps going, going and going. But if you let it shut off, then all of a sudden y- other things go into your life and you can't switch it back on because you don't know how. Well, and I, I think it goes to the whole thing of like, was everything that you were doing in service of getting into the college you wanted to go to? There wasn't any benefit to learning? Yes. And becoming good at stuff? Because that's ultimately where people get to call their own shots, right? When, when you have a way of going about everything, no matter what situation you're in, you're able to figure out what to do, how to do it, and how to be successful. Is everything gotta be, "I'm doing this for some other reason than the actual thing that I'm doing"? Eh, that's a, that's a complicated way to go and, uh, yeah. There's definitely a level of entitlement that goes with it too. Sure, sure. You know what I mean? A level of like, "Oh, well. Well, I'm going to college so everything's coming good now. I got it all co- I got it coming on." Mm-hmm, but th- when I, when I remember being that age, I mean, there's a certain amount of that that's unavoidable, you know, when you got a long future and it's all looking bright. Oh, yeah. I don't, I would never wanna relive my 20s, I gotta tell you. Th- th- there's never Uh, I think about that, you know, I'm 57 and there's no way that I would ever want to go back to 23 or 24. Ew. I'm, I, I, I "Is this the right move? Is this the thing? Should I be w- th- who should I be talking to? Would it be uh" And now I'm kind of like, "Eh." W- w- where, where you honestly believe that everything that happens is the most important thing- That's right. that's ever happened. Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. It's- You're so concerned about your path, and, and now it's like, I know the path that I'm on and I'm comfortable with it, and I'm okay. I, I, I see the direction I'm heading in and I'm okay with it. And, and, and, uh, there's nothing more to add to or to subtract to. I have to stay the course. Mm-hmm. And, and make sure I, I stay on top of the product that I'm putting out. And, and that's what most of the time that's all I'm worrying about. Yeah. I'm not concerned about other people's playing. I'm just conc- if I put out my good product, then it's comparable, and I, I feel like I'm, I'm in the ballpark. And, and as long as I take care of my own product. And, uh, so I spend a lot of time doing that. Speaking of comparing, a conversation again that we were having before. Mazaki told me one day that Per Brevik told him it's pretty deep, right? That, um And for those that don't know, these are trombone players. Per Brevik told him, "If you become somebody that plays just as well as Joel Alessi plays, the best you're ever gonna be is the second best Joel Alessi." Yeah. Interesting. You know, and, and, yeah, and, and I think that there's something to that. There is some way in which, you know, and, and that might provide a great career, but is that gonna provide the satisfaction that somebody wants? Mm-hmm. Is, is, is, is that a goal that somebody should inadvertently make? Um, but listen, let's, if in case you're interested in more Dave, Dave Sapenon, we're gonna shut this podcast down and we're gonna go prove something. And if you're watching this, the video will be out when you're watching it. If you're listening to it, we're gonna prove this question. Does a ligature change the tone of a clarinet? Because I was told that this new Ricardo Morales ligature is going to change my life. I think, I think it will. And so, so we're gonna, we're gonna move on to that now. Dave, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me, man. And, uh, yeah. And, uh, watch the ligature video. It's coming next. Um, and as always, don't hesitate to go to clarinetninja.com. Check out the Clarinet Ninja Dojo, all the things it has to offer you if you're an adult clarinet player that is looking to really, really increase the level of your improvement. What a great time you can have. Really figure out, you know, how to do the things that you've been struggling with as a clarinet player. Clarinet Ninja Dojo is a great place for you. And I'd love to see you there. If you have any questions, email me. Go on Facebook, join the Clarinet Ninja Forum. There's lots of ways to get in touch with me. I'm the only one in my business, and I will respond to you personally. That's it. See you next time- Bye. at the Ninja Podcast.
