Welcome to the clarinet ninja podcast. My name is Jay Hassler. As always, I'm doing my best to
bring you the finest in clarinet information and entertainment. Today is the first of a four-part
series where I'm talking to my good friend, Dr. Ron Odrich. If you don't know who Ron Odrich is,
you're in for a real treat. Uh Ron studied with incredible luminaries of the classical clarinet world
including Robert Marcellis, Daniel Bernad and then you're going to hear about some other
people that were big influences on him as well. In addition to that, his main focus as a clarinetist
was the jazz world and he's going to also talk about a friendship with Buddy DeFranco and the
influences that had on his career. But meanwhile, Ron was in the airman of note. And even
more than that, Ron is what is been described to me over and over as a world famous
periodontist. So he knows a lot about our mouth. He knows a lot about the clarinet. And in this
particular episode, he's going to talk to us about Marcellis, about Bonade, about his other
teachers, and his relationship with Buddy DeFranco, and how that influenced his growth as a
clan player. No further ado, here we go. Ron Odrich. As you can see, I'm away from home
today. Uh, I'm over at my friend Ron Odrich's house. Right, that's me. Thanks for having me,
Ron. It's my pleasure. Ron is going to share some information. And today we're going to talk
about some very uh famous clarinet teachers uh in the history of the clarinet. And Ron has had
uh a life where he got to meet and study with some of the finest players that started essentially
the American uh classical clinet tradition. And uh Ron, tell me about Daniel Bonade. the the
original Daniel Bonade. Daniel Bonade is actually a long name and long in the trail of people
that I I came in contact with. Right. Like so he's the first I mean he's like the first principal
clarinet player in the country but not the first claret teacher in your life. That's right. He's the first
clarinet player who really started what they call the American clarinet sound. Right. Which is
kind of funny in a way because actually he was a he was third or fourth or fifth along in my
experiences. My experiences were kind of odd in that I never sought any of these people. I
mean, Salamato, who was my, you'll see when you look at my my music stand, I got a picture of
my first teacher. He was a friend of the families who was a a virtuosic flutist. I'm really a virtuoso
from the Naples from Naples, Italy. and he came over and and it's a long story but he was a
friend of the families and he was always around and he was uh he soon became became aware
of the fact that you could make a lot of money as a studio musician but you had a double so he
used to get some calls as a flutist but he soon saw make a long story short he got to be a
phenomenal doubler not a jazz player but he could play I mean he got the most honestly for me
the most beautiful sound of the clarinet, including everybody I've ever heard. We talked about
the open G, right? When I first started, I was I was playing cello when I was a kid and I was
playing the Bakan accompany cello. I was about 11 years old and and I heard the the Rap
Cityian blue and you know, I fell in love with the clarinet. My father was a studio musician,
basically a chist who played a lot of other instruments because he'd follow along with Saul. They
were very close friends. and he learned how to play the clarinet, obo and English horn. My
father got to be f first class English horn obo player as a chist and he was a really good chist.
He actually traveled with the with the Budapest string quartet when the chist for that quartet
became ill and he was at Yale and they asked him to go on the road and he did. But anyway,
makes a long story short, Solomon got this most beautiful sound. And I'll tell you a story later on
if you want about Salamato and Daniel Bon because they wound up playing with each other and
the outcome was rather rather funny. But to to go on with the story, yeah, Solomon. Then from
there, I went to Jimmy Yabato because he was a friend of my father's playing studio work. And
uh then uh the uh Korean War came along and I went down and auditioned for the airman of
note which I got into which is another long story but I got into there and I met Bob Marcellis. So I
had Amato Abato Bob Marcellis and I studied with Bob Marcales for three years from 50 to 53
and then when when he I got out of the Air Force shortly after he left for the Zel orchestra. He
was in the National Symphony at that point. Yeah. He was in principle with the national. He was
interested. Bob is, you know, was a very very he's like a brother. We got to be really good
friends down there. Played golf a lot and listened to a lot of music together and I studied with
him and he insisted I speak I I see Bonad when I come up. So, okay. And I had been to Cal
Operman a couple of times and several times. So, add that to the list. And then I studied with
Bonad for several years. And um what was peculiar about was I was going to say before what
what was peculiar about Bonade is I always felt that the the French sound and the German
sound and the Greek sound or whatever sound you want to call them different sounds were
really a result of language you know what they did with their tongues and being a dentist and
being a mouth nut I you know I' I've always been aware of that and I and I think it's true like you
know you there's certain things I I come from an Italian family an Italian background around and
I realized after I started teaching in Italy, which is another long story, I was teaching periodonics
and playing in the jazz clubs and I be began to listen to people playing there, clarinet players,
saxophone players, flute players. And you know, there are certain sounds that Italians can't
make. This this really astounded me because I speak Neapolitan dialect and and and proper
Italian because my grandfather who lived with us taught my brother and me to speak Italian.
And I realized you can't you can't get a an Italian to say uh uh nice to meet you. They they they
or a e or u and and you can't get them to say uh I mean I can't they you after a lot of training you
can't right but you know you take that and you you apply it to a wind instrument and the fact that
the mouth is is a resonating chamber for you know the the sound the reed vibrates in your
mouth and the obo and English horn and the and then the clarinet certainly a saxophone on and
they that makes a huge difference in sound and quality of sound and so I think it's ironic that
Bonard from from France came over here got in the Philadelphia Orchestra and with King Cade
and with you know Tabato um was teaching and you listen to the sound that he got on some of
the recordings the first recordings the wonderful thing about Bob Marcellis was that on my first
time there you know I had I had been studying with with a bottle but they basically were just
some you know etudes the rose etudes right but never really into the classical part of the whole
thing. I was more a Buddy DeFranco fan, you know, and I got to know Buddy and he was
teaching me also at the same time. I fell into these things. I didn't go after Buddy. Buddy
DeFranco happened to be a guest at my father's one of my father's Sunday shows and and uh
and and he heard me playing the clarinet one day. I was trying to play the clarinet. I was still just
a chist but trying to play the clarinet and I was and I heard this guy Buddy DeFranco play and I
got that got the picture of him actually in the downbeat the year end thing when they did this
whole thing with got everybody together with Charlie Parker and he played a chorus on Purito
and I heard it and I was already sneaking my father's clarinet in my mouth when he wasn't
around cuz he was adamant about my pretty strong about my being a chist and and u and I and
I and he heard me playing one day and he said, "You know, there's a guy who comes on
Sundays once in a while." I said, "Yes, his name is Buddy Danco." I said, "I know that that's the
guy I I was listening to the record on." He said, "Yeah, you want to meet him?" "Sure." So, I get
to meet Buddy the Frank. He comes over the house. I get to be a friend. And you know, this is
what I was into. Bob Marcelus got a hold of me down in Washington when I went down there in
1950. He said, "You know what? What are you what are you listening to? Who are you listening
to?" I said, "Nobody really. And I just took these lessons with and I mentioned the names of
people. He said, "Yeah." He said, "Uh, I want you to do this." And he made a list. And I went up
to New York, went to Sam Goodies or, you know, and I got a whole bunch of records and the
first thing I listened to was Bonad solo on Shaherad. I said, "Oh my god, that is gorgeous." and
he got this very fluid what I later later would associate with uh a French sound but it wasn't really
it had more meat to it. It was there was a clarity and fluidity that that the French have and I think
it's because of their sound and the um lot that sound that they can make. Uh and I think that's
essential actually if you want to get into it later about what you the kind of a sound that you get
on the clarinet because of what goes on in your mouth, right? And um that was a great
influence. And Bonad then wanted to know why I was studying with him. He says why why why
you taking lessons with me? You know, God has spoken. You know, you know, it's a funny thing.
You're in this link and long was the name of the music uh store on 48th Street in Manhattan at
the time and across the street from Mandy's and some other other places. and and um it was in
a small room. It was like a closet. It was a small closet waiting room. There were just a chair and
then you walk in and it's in the chair and there's this big man. He's a big guy, six something and
with you know long kind of greasy hair uh and with a cast in his eye which was kind of funny
because you never quite knew. Oh, you know when you were talking to him, but he was always
stood in front of you kind of big belly guy, but very nice man, very good in his company. You
know, you could be very comfortable, but he was ext and Bob Marcelus was like this
extraordinarily proper. Everything was, you know, there was no how you doing, buddy. It was
none of that. It was all it was all yes. What were you going to do today? So, and uh he was a
phenomenal I think a phenomenal teacher. He never he just wanted to know what I wanted him
to do. And I said, "I'm going to get the best clarinet sound and play jazz." Did you want to play
jazz? I said, "Yeah." He said to play some of the A to So, he liked what he heard. And he taught
me for a couple years and I got to be a really much better clarinet player. But if I were to try to
tell you how, I wouldn't know. I mean it was just his presence and the way he guided me through
these essentially basically I didn't never played any of the excerpts with him because he knew I
wasn't going for a first chair somewhere which Bob Marcelus wanted me to do from my my my
approach to orchestras it's not something I ever wanted to do. I mean it just you know sitting in
an orchestra and going through the rehearsals and vying for the the solo that's about to come
up. It it's it's definitely a different different than what you turn. But he was but he was
extraordinary. He really was. The peak of of a lot of funny things happened while I was studying
with him for some reason. He got a phone call one day and and he excused himself for a
moment. You know, he didn't go into another room. He's standing right there. Picks up the
phone. He says, "Yes, no, Benny. No, no, Benny. No, I will not. No, Benny. No, thank you."
Hangs up. He looks at me. He said I said, "Benny?" He said, "Benny Goodman." He said, "He
never does what I told him to do anyway." He said, "Ah, not many people get to like retell a story
like that. I don't have any stories like that." Yeah. But you know, but these things happened to
me. You know, a lot of people look at they say, "This happened." Yes. A lot of a lot of things in
my life happened to me, but they happened to me. I mean, you know, some extraordinary things
like one time I'm playing number 12, I think, the the the rosetude, and he he looked at me and,
you know, he was like nodding as if I was pleasing him, you know, which was like unheard of,
you know. He took the clarinet out of my mind. Now, you have to understand, I had a Mayor
mouthpiece. You know, the mayor mouthpieces, I have one. I'll show you sometime. Yeah.
They're the worst in the world. They're like doors stops. I mean, they're they're really awful when
you measure them. And and and Joffy, a friend of mine, did this. He measured several of them. I
bought 10 of them because I tried Bob Marcellis' meor piece and it was spectacular. But I think it
was the only one ever made that was spectacular. And that's the one that broke before he went
out to right after he did the audition on it. And you know, Giuliani kind of bailed him out with his
his Casper. But but the point is that that here this guy takes my and you had to play the mayor
mouthpiece and the mayor reads which sucked. I mean they were really not very good at all. I
mean I love bunard. I mean I have the greatest respect. Who am I you know not criticizing him
but it was just the truth. So the point is he takes my clarinet with my read and my hakami re and
mouthpiece and he plays the a to it while looking at me with that. I'll never forget it with the two
eyes were little skew and I remember standing, you know, two feet in front of him and he he's
plays this whole thing from beginning to end. One of the most beautiful things I've ever heard on
the clarinet or anywhere for anything and hands me back the mouthpiece. And I said, "That's it."
I said, he said, "What?" I said, "I'm done." And I I'm what I meant is I wasn't going to play again
after that. I just wanted it was toward the end of the lesson anyway. And I of course I continued
studying with him, right? But I was so emotionally taken by what he did with my instrument and
my you know it's like the Phil Wood story with Bird, you know, yeah, I don't think everybody else
knows the story. Yeah. Well, Phil was a patient of mine and a friend of mine for a long time. He
actually told me the story. The story story is that he was playing in the I think he was still in
Giuliard at the time. He was like a student, but he was playing his head off. He's a
phenomenally talented player and musician. He was and and he was a friend and he told me
the story about because I've heard it from other people and he was down playing downtown
Manhattan somewhere in a club and he was complaining. He was like, you know, he was really
pissed off. He couldn't stand it anymore. The read wasn't right. The mouthpiece wasn't right.
The strap wasn't right. The the horn wasn't right. and he couldn't get out of it what he wanted to
and and somebody comes in to the the place and and they say you know they knew Phil they
had been fans and one guy said you know Charlie Parker down two blocks from here he said
but he's not playing he's supposed to play but he's not playing because he doesn't have the
horn so Phil Woods of course who had met Bird for him it was God he went running down there
and and then Bird saw him and he said what he says I I don't he hacked this man which used to
do for for money. And so Bill goes running backs and he grabs his horn, brings it down and he
gives it's his mouthpiece, his horn that he hates and the mouthpiece and the read and
everything that doesn't work and Bird puts it in his mouth. It sounds like God, you know. So Phil,
it's not it's not the horn and it's not the read and the mouthpiece. It's me, right? Sorry. It does.
Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that that's the story. And I kind of felt that way with with with but I never
expected him to do that. I don't know if anybody else when he ever took did that with somebody
else. I don't I spoke with Bob, he never did it with him. And and I think it was because shortly
before that, a lesson before that he asked me because I had been studying with him for a while.
He said, "What do you want to do this with jazz for?" Because he liked the way I was playing
and he, you know, but I felt very complimented and very, you know, happy. And uh he said,
"Why don't you play something for me? But for God's sake, don't hold the clarinet way up in the
air and screech, you know." So I said, "Okay." So I played him a course of body and soul and I
played one course. I played the head and I improvised a little bit and I ended it. He looked at me
and he said, "You always did that." I said, "We can work with that." And then and that was okay.
I was allowed into the club. Well, I want to put you on the spot in hearing this. I got a question.
Sure. It's a very detailed question and you you might be the only person that can answer it. No
pressure. Um, so I would like you to compare having heard them all live. Bonad when you heard
them, he probably he certainly probably had a sounded different at different points in his career,
but as you heard them compared to Bob Marcelos in the National Symphony playing on on a
different mouthpiece than he played on that we all have heard so much. Yeah, that's not
pressure. You're you're asking me stuff that I live by. I mean, you're you're right. You're you're
absolutely right. I was I was only kidding. Okay. Come on. A little pressure would be all right. I
can't I can't do anything right. No, actually, no. This is great. I I you know, I I love this because
it's what I lived and what I think of to this day. Yeah. I heard Bob play, first of all, I heard Bob
play in the National Symphony. I used to go down every chance I could. ourselves was Bowling
Air Force Base in in in DC and I was I had my own apartment and that kind of thing was three
sensational years, you know, being in the Air Force. Hard to say, but they were phenomenal.
Um, and I was very lucky because I had time to practice. I could spend three or four hours a day
and I did. I learned how really learned how to play the clarinet from 50 to 53 with under Bob's
Egyp. And it was there were wonderful times and he He got a sound. I think the word that I
used, and I've used this in articles and interviews that I've had, he got the most burnished
beautiful, you know, Aato was a phenomenal clarinet, wonderful clarinetist, but he got this very
fluid, gorgeous kind of flowing sound. It was was very pretty and very lovely. Um, I wouldn't say
it was a ballsy sound because I like that on the clarinet. like Buddy DeFranco's approach to
sound and and Bob Marcellus's sound, but at the time he was using the outfit. He had an R13
and he had a a Mayor mouthpiece which was phenomenal which was destined to break
between his audition and going out. It was finally time for him. You know the story. But he got
this most beautiful sound that carried in in Constitution Hall and I used to go down there with
Walt Levinsky who was a friend of mine was a wonderful musician. We used to go down just to
hear him and the sound he got always whatever outfit he was using and of course for the three
years that I was with him he's using the same meor mouthpiece and I guess Van Doran reads at
the time he hadn't gotten into the meors yet with with the uh with his change in equipment to the
other mouthpieces you know and and the Caspers but he always sounded beautiful like a
singing sound but it was not a big sound. It was a mediumsiz sound, I would say. Lot of highs in
it, but never objectionably high. It was always beautiful and burnished. You had a lot of highs in
his sound, but there were I mean, there was a beautiful clarinet sound, but it wasn't what it
would become with the other equipment in the Zel orchestra. Well, it was very different from
everybody's sound. Very different from Bonade sound. Okay. Very different. In what way was it
different? Well, if Bob's sound had a resonance in it and the people you say got a dark sound,
he never got a dark sound. He said something himself. He his work was He said, "No, that's
bullshit." He said, "No, this is not a dark sound. It's a it was a large sound, a large volume
sound. Not sound loudness, but in size and and and I can tell you a story about that involving
my son, which I think I told you already, which was remarkable. And that sound carried over the
orchestra as if it was going out to a meadow. I mean, I don't know how else to describe it. Uh
Bob Marcellus' sound. De Franco's sound didn't. On sound didn't, and Marcellus' sound and with
the National Symphony didn't do that. There was something that became so remarkable and
and and his sound and I think had a lot to do with his teeth because Bob Marcellus lost his
upper teeth. He was a category one diabetic. He had infantile diabetes and and uh those people
who have that syndrome, that disease, that that problem generally have a lot of period hollow
problems and they lose their teeth rather easily. losing your teeth on the upper on your upper
arch. I'll speak as a dentist now. Um has an enormous effect because unless you're playing
double lip and you're curling your upper lip or see because a denture in the back has to seal
against your soft pallet. If air gets in between your pallet and the denture, it flops down and you
can't speak and you certainly can't play clarinet. So what you've got to do is you got to do this.
You've got to hold back the denture. No matter how much glue you use, you have to hold it back
with your upper lip and push up back. That seats it. What that does, you can hear the dishes of
the sound of my voice. And I'm just doing that. It raises the soft pallet, right? Which is the
anathema for somebody with a full denture wants to play clarinet. So they have to do something
called the post dam. The denture is made so it goes it pushes the the pallet up higher. so that
that seal doesn't break. Right. Okay. So, he had a play and you see pictures. I have it on my
wall of fame over there. He's he he's playing this far. He's holding back and he's doing what
Gilotti called a perfect example of what the soft pallet should be doing when you're playing to
make a large resonant chamber in your mouth. You're as if you're stifling a yawn, right? So,
stifling a yawn is this. We're going to yawn. Yeah, it always happens every time I give this. I give
a lecture sometimes and I know I'm being I'm hitting home and the half the audience starts to
yawn. But actually that but that's what he did and I'm I'm convinced that made he gave a bottom
to his sound a roundness and a beauty that was sensational. The story with my son and it's
appropo of what we're talking about was very simply as opposed to bonade. but not had, you
know, you see clarinet right right down here had an overbite. Bob had a huge overbite, but he
didn't have upper teeth as his sound got darker and darker and he could use less and less force
against the upper teeth that would unseat the denture. So, he had to be very careful and almost
play with a a double lip approach. So, he had to get a lot of support from his upper lip, not just
his upper teeth. So when you try that on the clarinet, you'll find out that it does this to your voice.
Right. Right. And and that is a resonating chamber where as you and if you analyze it, the reads
are vibrating in your mouth. The sound is coming in your mouth. Not with the trumpet, trumpet,
flute, anybody else. It's outside the vibration, right? The vi the vibration start in your mouth as an
oboist and as a as a you know double read or single read player. So that sound was so
remarkable that my son Mark at the age of 12 had been studying clarinet with my father was
was a teacher with my kids and he heard a clarinet play all all the time and you know how at
home I used to practice whenever I could you know I was still a dentist and my father I had kids
and but he heard clarinet playing a lots of clarinet playing at home and Bob Marcelus came into
town with the Zillow orchestra and he usually got together when he did and he called me up and
he said would you like to come and see here a rehearsal there was a rehearsal tomorrow was a
Thursday or something said there's a rehearsal tomorrow at Carnegie Hall with the orchestra I
think it was not ma but um one of the Italian guys was conducting anyway he said why don't you
come and then I'll I'll tell the the front the office so I come in with Mark sitting there and I think it
was rocks too I think it was rock to second second act second movement there's this long
beautiful clar learned a solo and I'm sitting in the 10th row, the only Mark and I are the only two
people in the audience and the orchestra is rehearsing and all of a sudden it starts off with this
sound and my my son's sitting there and he and and he starts to squirm and I said, "What?" He
what is that? What is that? He laughed. I said, "It's a clarinet sound." It was that extraordinary.
Now, my son's ears, I will tell you, he's a very got he got great musical abilities. My son can
could at that age tell you the difference between a uh a Mozart and a had a hiden conerto. He
knew he knew right away. You could hear the difference in voicings and things like that. He was
so he was very astute and coming from him, you know, what is that? Right. Right. Sure. was it
was and what it was was this big sound of the clarinet soaring over the orchestra. He had what
people thought was a dark sound, which maybe for some people, well, I think at the time it was.
Well, you know what it was? It was resonant, right? You know, I I hate I kind of don't like the
sound of dark because it's become mud and it's been a lot of clarinet players have gone in that
direction and get a dark sound. To me, it sounds like a chocolate milk bottle when I hear this,
you know, like it's this syrupy black dark sound that is not resonant, but some guys are are have
learned enough now when I it's becoming an issue because you can't you can't hear those in in
a symphony orchestra for the longest time going to orchestral orchestral performances, I noticed
that you can hardly hear the clarinet player because they've got this dark very dark sound. you
know Franklin Con but he got a lot of volume out of it but most people could not. So when they
say Bob had that reaction too way back then it's a long time ago and and he felt that it was not
really a dark sound. Ironically the sound that that Bob used to give this do you have the
recordings of to the tonal concept by Mar I've got to get I got you a copy. You you you'll love it.
the sound that he loved all the different you you heard McInness, you heard uh Mlan it was a
Thursday night when I used to go out and teach at the classes out there, right? Okay. On
Thursday night, he would give something called to tonal concept and he had recordings done of
excerpts by the ma most magnificent clarinet of Claris uh everybody right was in it. Bonade was
in it. Mlan was in it. McInness was in it. Giant was in it. he was in it and and so you heard all
these sounds but the only recording sound of dissantis that I know of is in the looking glass
darkly or something like that but but it is the most one of the most beautiful luscious dark sound
the thing that got closest to Sal Amato sound that I've ever heard in an orchestral player and
Bob used to say that's my favorite sound and that was a really dark sound but a gorgeous
sound. Have you Are you familiar with that? I've heard it but I I I it but ironically he loved that
sound. You and the rest of the world think it's a dark sound. I know that don't don't equate me
with the rest of the world. Um was the equipment of that era really able to make a dark sound
that we would call a dark sound today? Oh, I think so. Yeah, sure. There were caner
mouthpieces there. Then there were there were still the the French mouthpieces which were
very prone to that. Uh different shadings. Yeah, there were people who got dark sounds then.
No, no question about it. It became much more preferred with the passage of time for some
reason. the I mean the way I reflect on it is I mean you know whether Marcelus likes it or not he
did sort of set the first step of the path towards that. He was one of the first Yeah. the people
heard in that sound. Yes. Certainly it was a darker sound than he got in in Washington when he
was in the national. No question about that. Would you say that that you know we're going back
a couple parts of the conversation. What I'm hearing is that your your your contention on it
would be that that had more to do with his teeth than it actually did with the equipment change. I
think it had to do with both. Yeah. Yeah. The Casper mouthpieces have go in that direction
question. But they cast mouth pieces generally speaking have a lot of resonance in them, right?
The ones that I have I have about six of them, but I mean they're different openings and different
tip openings, different rail curvatures, but they're uh Yeah, I think you're right. I think yeah the
equipment has changed there but you know there are so many variables when you try to equate
what one one person is doing when you look at Bob Marcellus's mouth and I knew a little bit
about his mouth and he and the sound that he was getting and the the the changes in the sound
that occurred um I think you know when you figure this out what are the variables you know for
a violinist the fingers size of the fingers the angle behave the ability to to to you know a whole
another ball game. The chalice is a different different the position is different. These are all
factors in the mouth. You have the teeth. You have the tongue. You have the pallet. You have
the the the size of the tongue. You have the the arch of the pallets. People have a flat pallet
which makes a very big difference or a huge pallet that goes way up. Don't give too much away.
We're going to do a whole segment on that. But really I mean but those are the variables, right?
Right. So when you ask about, you know, what was it? Yes, you're right. There were there were
equipment changes that made a big difference. The clarinets also like the Bon clarinets with
different wood that make a difference. The the the clarinets, the UR clarinets, is that what they're
called? Ricardo is they they're all different sounds. Yeah. But, you know, there are different
sounds on top of whatever the player brings to the clarinet in terms of where his teeth are. You
know, that thing you don't want to talk about till later. Well, you know, we we we you know, we
we have to follow. Well, yeah, we we we want people to get the goods in the order that that that
that I dictate they get whatever. Usually, I think I know the answer to questions that I ask about
the clarinet. I I don't think I know the answer to this one. At what point did the clan tradition go
from most people playing double lipped to most people not playing double lipped? That's a good
question. I I don't know if that has an answer though because actually you take a person like
John Manasse a phenomenal one of the most wonderful clarinet players around beautiful sound
a friend of mine but gorgeous sound has a son son picked up the clarinet who is now a very you
know performing love clarinetist but but John told me he said he automatically did a double lip
when he was a kid so he played for a long doesn't play double lip anymore now. That's that's
what I did too. However, however, you know, you ask when did it start? I mean, I think John
Manasse's son has his own answer to that one. It started when I was 11 years old or whatever,
but I mean, well, well, I'm looking at like, you know, like did you Well, look, it depends on where
you live, too. If you lived in Italy, you were playing with a green on on on your upper lip. Well, I'm
thinking more of like like sort of more central. I think my answer is I don't know. Okay. I did it.
No, because I I feel like when we listen to like You sure you don't want some nuts? Um because
like like you know like McInness played double lift, right? I mean like double did. Yeah. And I
think certainly Mlan did. Yeah. And and um Bonade did not never did, I don't think. Oh,
interesting. and and and Bob and Bob Marcellus uh played double lip for a while when he first
had a lot of problems with his mouth and he realized that holding with his lip and yeah but I think
with Bob had the advantage of knowing what the upper lip was doing because he was a
necessity for him right but yet was not necessary for him to cover the lip over the teeth to the
extent that it it interposed itself between the teeth and the top of the mouthpiece. So I think uh
historically I I I can't answer that question because I don't even know if the question if the
answer exists. I mean is there a point in time when there was a well there people today still play
I know people still do it but I I I in my understanding it kind of used to be the primary way in
which which most orchestral players played and and now it's not there's people that still do it.
You know what's funny about that? Bob Marcelus used to say nonsense. That's BS. He said he
would say because all the double lip players say the sound gets bigger. It doesn't. It gets
smaller, you know. So there were differences in in terms of what what you felt. But then again,
he's a he was talking from a if you want to call it a converted point of view because he was
applying the double lip advantage without putting the lip over the teeth. Big deal. I mean, you
know, it it those but it's a good question. I never thought of it in history. So, but yeah, I would I
would tend to think it was the old way to play years and years and years ago because there
were different variations at that time. I don't know what the French guys ever did. Do you know if
Kahuzak was uh I don't know. I I just kind of assume that he did. I I you know, I don't know. I
don't know the answer to that. Maybe people listen to this. Dantis was D. The Santis was not
okay. And he got the darkest sound you've ever heard. I mean, he got listen to that passage
sometime. I will get I I will duplicate a CD that I have of that to the tonal concept. It's an
interesting very interesting series of sounds. When I was teaching, I taught there for 12 or 13
years consecutively when he had the master classes in June and I I would go there and I would
listen to these things. I make sure I got there a couple of days before because I wanted to really
tune into what he was doing. My thing was on Friday and Saturday night. So when he had, you
know, he had a jazz guy come in and do do something. But um it it it's it's an interesting
perspective to think of it historically what the what happened. I wish I knew. Yeah. Yeah. All
right, Ron, thanks for doing this. My pleasure. If you're listening to this and you are an adult clan
player who's interested in getting better, getting better faster, and getting better better, if you
know what I'm saying, learning some really, really good habits that you can build upon and really
amplify your rate of success on the clarinet, why don't you check out the clan ninja dog Joe? It's
all linked down in the description. And uh I'm going to continue talking to Mr. on ODrich. And
we're going to have some amazing podcasts coming up soon. So check it out. Like, subscribe,
all of it. Leave a comment if you would. And we'll see you next time on the Planet Ninja Podcast.
