Virginia MacDonald: Forging a New Voice for Jazz Clarinet

June 01, 2026

What does it take to build a career on an instrument that modern jazz largely left behind?

Virginia MacDonald grew up the daughter of one of Canada's most celebrated jazz saxophonists - sitting in smoky Toronto clubs at age four, surrounded by musicians like Neil Swainson and Pat Larbara as if they were just the neighbors. She picked up the clarinet at six because she thought the keys looked like buttons. Nobody told her the instrument had a problem. By the time she figured out that almost nobody was hiring clarinet players for contemporary jazz groups, she'd already decided she was going to make it work. In this conversation, Virginia talks about growing up in an artistic household, learning jazz by ear instead of out of books, her complicated relationship with her first classical clarinet teacher, and how transcribing Kenny Dorham and Clifford Brown solos, instead of clarinet players, helped her find her own voice on the instrument.

We also dig into her debut album as a bandleader, her collaboration with bass clarinetist/composer Todd Marcus, and the philosophy behind her compositions.

Topics covered:

Growing up in Toronto with a jazz legend father and visual artist mother

Choosing the clarinet at age six ("I thought they were buttons")

Learning jazz by ear and why structured practice felt foreign

The barrage: her first classical clarinet teacher at 15

Why she transcribed trumpet players, not clarinet players Kenny Dorham, Clifford Brown, and the In and Out record that changed her playing

The shrinking clarinet lineage in jazz and what she did about it Her debut album on Cellar Music, including Last Call at Dimitri's and Eternal Return of the Same

Her "Frankenstein" R13 and the crystal mouthpiece she hated for two weeks before never going back

Practicing on the road: why it's a blessing and a curse Links:

Virginia MacDonald's website: https://virginiamacdonald.ca/

Album on Bandcamp: https://virginiamacdonald.bandcamp.com/album/in-search-of

Cellar Music label: https://www.cellarlive.com/

Stream everywhere: Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, Tidal

Clarinet Ninja Dojo (adult clarinet learning): https://www.clarinetninja.com/dojo-landing

Book a free session with Jay: https://calendly.com/theclarinetninja/30min

Episode Transcript

CLARINET NINJA PODCAST — VIRGINIA McDONALD INTERVIEW

VIRGINIA: He's a man. Well, when — and I just feel like even like socially, like, you know, he's like such a good person. Like I feel like, you know, he's like — his behavior is as ethical as his — he's a really, really kind soul. And you know, you can see because I've started spending more time in Baltimore. Um, just by working with him. And you know, we walk down his block and everyone knows him.

JAY: Welcome to the Clarinet Ninja Podcast. My name is Jay Hassler.

VIRGINIA: Hey, I'm Virginia McDonald.

JAY: As always, I am doing my best to bring you the finest in clarinet information and entertainment. Today Virginia McDonald has allowed me to invite myself to her home and hang out with her and our friend Olive and talk about the clarinet. Virginia has an album that has just come out. I believe it to be a work of unprecedented creative genius. We're going to get to that in a minute. But Virginia, talk to me about growing up in Canada, the daughter of — I've heard him called Canada's greatest saxophone player, Canada's greatest tenor player, a sort of a Canadian legend. Is that fair?

VIRGINIA: Yeah. Um, it was a really interesting childhood for me. I grew up in a super artistic family. My mom is actually a visual artist as well. And then with my dad, music was just kind of always there, right? I think part of me assumed that that was just the norm for everyone growing up — that, you know, oh, my dad is in his studio practicing for six hours a day and my mom is doing her illustrations. So music was kind of always a constant for me in art, in our household. And I have such great memories of going to hear my dad play when I was younger and, you know, sitting in these jazz clubs. And it's funny, like it was before smoking was banned in restaurants and bars. So, you know, like me as like a four or five-year-old sitting there and watching my dad and being in these clubs, it was like I just loved it so much. I loved the energy. I loved the vitality, I guess, of all of it.

JAY: I'm assuming your dad played a little bit of clarinet, maybe a lot of clarinet. I don't know anything about that.

VIRGINIA: Um, not not very much. I mean, we kind of joke about it now that he leaves the clarinet duties up to me, I think. So my first clarinet — actually to give a little bit of background — you know, I started — I always say my gateway instrument was recorder. And I think for many people in the American school system, that was kind of the first instrument. But I was involved in a community music program in Toronto from a very young age. I was about five or six. And so at a certain point, historically what happened is you would be put into an ensemble at the beginning of a year and we would meet every Saturday and get to play with other kids. And so when that happened, my dad kind of posed the question to me — well, now we're going to switch to — I shouldn't say a real instrument, I think that might have been the word that he used. I mean, it's not totally unfair in terms of what are you going to actually — what's next? So that was kind of the question that was posed. And I think how I remember it is I went into his studio and he had all these different instruments laid out, like it was kind of like a Willy Wonka, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory type of thing. And so, obviously I had grown up seeing him play saxophone, and we had a piano at the apartment. I think there might have been like a flute. So there were all these different instruments and I saw the clarinet and I think that was my first time really seeing it, and I was just like entranced with it. I saw it and I thought it was so beautiful. I thought of them as buttons at the time, but all the keys and the key work — I just thought it was like the most beautiful thing. And so I just thought, okay, that's the instrument that I'm going to play.

JAY: Ricardo Morales has almost the same story. He looked at it and said it was the perfect amount of wood and metal.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. Like it was just exactly — it was perfect. And I don't know if it was maybe like coming from recorder, because I actually really enjoyed playing it when I was a kid. And so I kind of saw maybe the similarities there. I always joke with my dad, I'm like, well, I wasn't going to do the same thing as him, you know? I had a mind of my own, I think, even then. But yeah, so that's kind of how I got started. I was around six years old at the time. My fingers weren't big enough to cover the tone holes yet. So I waited about another year. My parents thought, okay, we'll give her a bit more time. And then from there on out, that was kind of the instrument for me.

JAY: So, you know, my dad had an inclination where he felt he was going to teach me — and that was like absolutely — I'm taking notes because my daughter is interested in playing the clarinet. I fear the same dynamic.

VIRGINIA: It — I mean, as I get older and older now I appreciate it more. And I think even then, like as I got into my teen years, I would allow little moments of, okay, I'm listening. But it usually was under the guise of we're going to play something together. So I have a lot of memories of us sitting down when I was in high school, and I would maybe be learning a jazz standard and he would play piano, and we'd talk about, okay, what can I play over these chords? What can I be thinking over this chord progression? So if the information was fed to me in an organic way, I'd accept it. But every time he tried to sit down and teach me something, it was like I wanted none of it at the time.

JAY: So did he ever leave the house and say, "When I get back, I want Cherokee in all 12 keys."

VIRGINIA: No, he did not. He did not. And I hope that that doesn't ever happen to this day.

JAY: So I grew up with these incredible musicians kind of hanging out in the apartment. Um —

VIRGINIA: People like Neil Swainson, great bass player who worked with Joe Henderson and Woody Shaw, and Pat Larbara who later became one of my main mentors. But in a weird way, just kind of like how you were talking about your daughter, it felt like — oh well, that's just Pat, that's just Neil, you know, these are like my parents' friends who I've known since I was three years old or whatever. But it was great. There was a lot of music happening at the time in Toronto, and I don't think there was ever a shortage of great music that I was exposed to.

JAY: Well, I've never heard your dad play. What style of jazz is his thing?

VIRGINIA: Good question. Well, he's a tenor saxophone player and I think definitely coming out of John Coltrane for sure. But a whole lot of different influences — obviously people like Charlie Parker. Not a real traditional jazz player — I wouldn't say that. Coming from that, but then coming out of that and writing his own music. And I'm trying to disassociate him from like Gerald Albright or like smooth jazz.

JAY: No, I'm not trying to draw that.

VIRGINIA: Definitely not. And he's going to kill me if I say the wrong thing and he watches this.

JAY: Oh no. Come on. I want to create family division. Please. That's what this podcast —

VIRGINIA: Yeah. No, that was my plan all along. Um, no. I mean, more modern, I think, in certain ways, whatever that word may mean. But definitely heavily influenced and coming out of that kind of 60s Coltrane sound. And so that was like a big part of what informed me musically, because I really just had this constant sound of saxophone, maybe more than clarinet or other instruments, kind of just everywhere around me. And my dad was always one of these like virtuosic practicers. I would grow up with him practicing five, six hours a day in that house. So he was kind of the one to say, oh, you should listen to Charlie Parker, you should listen to John Coltrane, you should listen to Sonny Rollins. And same thing — I was like, well, I'm not going to listen to those people. And then over time you do start to listen and you're like, oh, this is the best thing.

JAY: They're as good as everybody says, right?

VIRGINIA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was kind of my upbringing, I guess.

JAY: And so when you decided you wanted to play clarinet, did you get like an R13 immediately?

VIRGINIA: So it was actually my dad's instrument. At that point he really was not playing any clarinet. He didn't really work so much as a session musician — he really kind of focused on being out there with his own groups. And so at a certain point it was just like there was no practical use for him on the clarinet. So he had an old R13 from the 1960s. I still have it somewhere, I'm not sure where right now, but it exists. And it's a great instrument. It was a beautiful instrument and a really great place to get started.

JAY: That's what I play. So for the geekiest question in the world — what kind of mouthpiece did you have when you started?

VIRGINIA: Oh gosh. I mean, that's hard to remember. When I first started, I'm really not sure. Eventually, when my parents saw that maybe I was taking it a little bit more seriously, we went out and tried some different mouthpieces. I ended up with a B45. So that's what I played for quite a long time — pretty standard. I had a couple of other ones like an M30, you know, like all of the classic Vandoren pieces. And so that's kind of where I got started. But the interesting thing is, when it comes to gear and equipment, I was kind of just informed by saxophone players who doubled on clarinet, and that's who most of my teachers tended to be. So it was kind of like, okay, that seems like it would be the standard, so we'll go with that. I didn't have a legitimate clarinet teacher, whatever that may mean, until I was about 15 or 16.

JAY: So up until then it was a lot of guesswork. I started my daughter on E-flat clarinet. And I just on Amazon ordered a BD5. And then I was like, I wonder if this is good. So I tried it. And now she doesn't have a mouthpiece anymore.

VIRGINIA: It's really good. I think they're recommended so readily for a reason. They're high quality and affordable.

JAY: So at what point did you feel like — this is clicking, this is what I'm going to do? Was it immediate?

VIRGINIA: Yeah, it's a weird thing. I get that question sometimes and I feel like sometimes I hear people answer the same question and there's like a real immediate like, this was the moment. It didn't really happen that way for me. It was just kind of inevitable in the sense that it felt like this is going to happen. There wasn't like a question of whether or not I would do this. It was just like, well, yeah, I'm going to be a musician. That's just what makes sense.

JAY: There is something powerful to that. Because if you don't consider anything else, you don't have any choices — in a very nice way.

VIRGINIA: Right. I think too, maybe part of it in a less romantic sounding way was like — I wasn't the best student. I think when I was in high school and even going into college, I was very focused on what I was focused on and what I enjoyed doing. And otherwise I had a really really hard time. So when I got into my junior and senior years, it just felt like everything was even more background noise. It was like, this just makes sense. I'm good at this thing. It feels like the natural next step for me.

JAY: And when you went to college, were you in a program that allowed you to just study jazz music, or were you also learning like Rosé etudes?

VIRGINIA: No. I got like a bachelor in music, jazz performance. So it was very much like a jazz performance degree and program. And it kind of continued this trajectory where I was studying with a great saxophonist but someone who didn't really have too much experience as a — you know, how to make the clarinet work. And you know, it worked out. So just to go backwards a little bit, when I first started taking lessons with a legit clarinet teacher, my parents thought, you know, maybe it would be good to get her to work on some foundational things or technique — just make sure that everything is kind of where it should be. And immediately it felt like — your tone is wrong, your embouchure is wrong, your sound is wrong, your gear is wrong. It was just like a barrage of information. Just like, everything that you've been doing is not the correct way to do it.

JAY: Well, who would be like, "Oh, great." I mean, honestly, it's hard to respond to that in any other way.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. And I think especially for a teenager — and I had been playing my instrument for, I guess at that point, like eight years. And of course I was still a baby. Not to say that I was like some kind of prodigy, I don't feel that I was. But it did kind of feel like, well, this doesn't make sense. This doesn't go along with like anything that I've been told by other people. And I felt very boxed in by that, and a bit frustrated. And that relationship did not last a very long time.

VIRGINIA: I think the other thing that at the time was problematic for me is I was not used to learning things in such a structured way. A lot of what I learned was more by ear where I would pick up on things or I would learn songs and repertoire. But I wasn't as comfortable playing scales or working on arpeggios in all 12 keys in a book. And I think that for me that was always — and still to some extent continues to be — a struggle if there's not a practical application for working on something. I kind of have a hard time with it.

JAY: If there's a direct application, it's really attractive — because then you can do this thing better right now. In the abstract, scales are kind of boring. I am a frustrated jazz tenor player. But I learned scales just by ear — I didn't read them. And so when I opened the Baermann book I'm like, oh, it's cute, they wrote all these down. Why would you do that? It still baffles me a little bit. And I feel like the way we learn scales as classical musicians needs to bring that in a little bit, because I think the musicianship part of it is also strengthened by that.

VIRGINIA: I think so too. And it's like firing at all cylinders. You work on your ear. You work on your theory in a way that you're actually internalizing it because it's like, oh, okay, it's related to this, or it's applicable here in this situation. And you know, it's funny that you bring up that book — it was my nemesis. I hated it. I loathed it. I really, really have such unfond memories of that book. And now, of course, I'm older and I go, okay, I understand the purpose of having everything congregated like this, and the exercises themselves are great — fantastic, sure. But for me it was like, okay, you're going to go do this with the metronome at whatever 60 BPM and you're going to do C-sharp major and you're going to do the repeating scale — and I was just like, oh my god.

JAY: So then you're in college, and I do remember when you were talking at the clarinet convention a few years ago, you were talking about trying to find a way to fit the clarinet into music that people didn't necessarily inherently hear the clarinet.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. And so you know, that was maybe an interesting part of my background — because I started playing so young, you lack that self-awareness. It's really a beautiful thing. Like I'm just going to play this song and hopefully it's nice and it's fun. And then you get a little bit older and it's kind of like, oh wait, I'm playing this instrument and there's like five examples out there of people playing the same instrument and playing this style of music. I know I'm exaggerating, I know there's more. But at the time, there was not really anyone I was exposed to. I had like a couple of Benny Goodman CDs — but if I'm being honest, in some way, as great as that is, it's almost unrelated to what you're trying to do at that point. So many years had gone by. It was very different than the musical aesthetic that I was part of or taking part in. So while I appreciate — okay, I have these Benny Goodman records, I have a couple of Buddy DeFranco albums — of course I would listen and go, okay, they're doing this, and wow, the interesting thing about the clarinet lineage in jazz is I find that almost all of the clarinetists without fail are very virtuosic. So I would listen to that and I'd go, wow, okay, that's really impressive. But I had a hard time relating to it again just because I felt like the aesthetic was maybe a bit far removed from what I was into. And I was at that time starting to listen to more musicians like John Coltrane or Joe Henderson or Sonny Rollins — and it just felt more modern. So when I started thinking, okay, I'm going to do this — it was like, okay, well, there's not a lot of people that I can listen to. And then I started looking around and I was like, oh, people want to have a more traditional front line in their band. They want to have saxophone and they want to have trumpet. Who's hiring clarinet players to play in like a jazz quartet or quintet? And so that was kind of like a — oh, all right, what am I doing here — type of moment. But I was self-aware of that, and I also kind of felt like — I need to and I will make it work.

JAY: Well, when I hear you play I feel like you have definitely forced your own path. And when I went to hear you and Todd Marcus play down at Smalls, to hear the two of you play together — that's such a special thing to have so much clarinet represented in such a wonderful way, but in ways that is coming out of a tradition but isn't beholden to the tradition. It makes a lot of sense for you to have gone through a struggle with — how do I fit in here, how do I make this work — when not necessarily that nobody wants it, but nobody's looking for it.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. Right. It wasn't like, oh, I don't want clarinet in my — it was just like, well, that doesn't exist, does it? And like the few people who — when I was in my late teens, early 20s — it was like, oh okay, there's people like Anat Cohen. Oh, there's people like Eddie Daniels. So you start putting together this list of names which is still relatively small.

JAY: When people think of the clarinet, they think of like New Orleans style. They think of swing style. And then there's Buddy DeFranco.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. And Eddie Daniels. And there are so few bebop clarinet players.

JAY: Yeah. It wasn't like the lineage continued.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. On mass through that period. No, definitely not. And Buddy DeFranco is kind of a great example. So one of the things — when I started listening a little bit more — I would listen to someone like Buddy DeFranco and I'd go, okay, wow, like here's a great bebop clarinet player, but still it seemed very isolated. And I think maybe again it was that same thing where it was like, it was more popular at the time to have saxophone and trumpet in a front line. So it's not like Buddy DeFranco was doing a lot of work as a side person. In the sense that — you look at someone like John Coltrane or Sonny Rollins or Joe Henderson or even going into trumpet players, people like Lee Morgan or Kenny Dorham — where they would collaborate very often and have their own projects but also collaborate with different musicians as a side person. And even with someone like Buddy DeFranco, it was like, okay, well, this still feels quite isolated. It's a very specific thing, right? And the big thing that really started to jump out to me more is — it felt like, maybe — and I still talk to different clarinet players about why this may be — the vocabulary felt very different to me. Like it felt like there was a bit more of a universal vocabulary that trumpet players and saxophone players and piano players shared. And it felt like clarinet was somehow outside of that. And so that kind of led me to — okay, if I'm going to transcribe something, I might gravitate more towards a trumpet solo or a sax solo.

JAY: That's going to be my next question. In terms of a non-clarinet jazz record, could you pinpoint like — this is the one I listen to the most?

VIRGINIA: No. I mean there's so many —

JAY: Just pick two. Non-saxophone.

VIRGINIA: Okay. So trumpet. I mean, I've listened to a lot of trumpet players and I transcribed a lot of trumpet players. Because the range is so similar. With tenor — it would work, but tenor was very hard because nothing would be intuitive on the instrument. You would end up having to play things an octave higher or kind of jumping down. So I started focusing more on trumpet players. People like Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, more modern players — still living — like Tom Harrell, Kenny Dorham. And so what I found first of all is — oh wow, this is great. Like this sits kind of just above the throat register of the instrument a lot of the time. Unless you have like a real lead player, most trumpet solos within the context of jazz are going to be within the staff, or maybe up to like a high A-flat or B-flat concert. So it all felt like — oh wow, this fits really well. So I started listening to one of my favorite records — I can't narrow it down, but one that comes to mind — would be In and Out, which is Joe Henderson with Kenny Dorham. And so just like listening to his sound, it was like, oh man, I want to sound like that on clarinet. Because everything felt so seamless and smooth. The articulation — I hadn't really heard the same thing yet on clarinet. So it was like, I'm going to try to do that as much as I can on my own instrument.

JAY: But you're talking about Kenny Dorham more than Joe Henderson.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. And I love Joe Henderson too. But it was like, oh, Kenny Dorham — what a beautiful sound. And also it was like very flexible. The way that he was bending notes, the way that he would attack a note or start a note, and like end a note — falling down from it or lifting up to it. It was like I want to get that sense of fluidity.

JAY: So I started listening to a lot more —

VIRGINIA: Like I would listen to someone like Clifford Brown play ballads and I wasn't even so concerned about the vocabulary, but it was more like I'm going to just try to play these solos by ear and match the sound that these musicians are getting as much as possible.

JAY: From a classical standpoint, I would listen to a lot of Fritz Kreisler play the violin and transcribe that. It brings out so much — like you're talking about articulation, the way notes start, the way they end, and what they do in the middle — it's much different than what happens on a clarinet.

VIRGINIA: Oh, absolutely. And there's so much to learn from that. And so that was like a real learning because when I started transcribing more and more musicians, it was like — I would transcribe a Sonny Rollins solo, for example, and I would do it by ear. That's still how I do it. And I would play it and I'd go, okay, well I know that the rhythm's right. I know that the notes are right. Why does it not sound as good? And it's like, okay, well I'm not Sonny Rollins. But also I think what was lacking is the phrasing and the nuance of how things were played. And I always felt really jealous — oh man, like these sax players, the trumpet players, the trombone players — they can so readily bend notes and kind of have these inflections in their tone. And I felt like I was really struggling with that for a long time. And so that was kind of like my gateway into — oh, okay, so I can do these things with my sound. It is possible, but I need to figure out my own way of doing it.

JAY: So this album that's out — is this your first album, second album, third album, 15th album?

VIRGINIA: So this is my first album as a bandleader. It's my first album, you know, that I've put together myself — my own band, my own compositions, my own music.

JAY: Are these all your compositions?

VIRGINIA: So, mostly — six of my own tunes and then two standards. Two ballads. I love playing ballads. And I picked two of my favorites. Stardust, and Duke Ellington Sound of Love by Charles Mingus. And those are two duets. Stardust is a duo with Ira Coleman on bass, and Duke Ellington Sound of Love is with Jeffrey Keezer on piano. So aside from that, everything is original.

JAY: Okay. Here's what I want to know, and this might be a dumb question — just pretend it's not. Do you find a difference in how you approach improvising over a standard versus your own composition?

VIRGINIA: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think yes and no. There's a lot of freedom to playing over your own music, right? Because no one knows what it's supposed to sound like. Not that playing over standards is supposed to sound a certain way — but you know, we have an impression in our mind. So I think there's like a real sense of freedom to that, which is nice. And when it's your own music, it's like — oh, okay, well, I can really stretch out on this and I can try things. That part of it is nice.

JAY: Yeah. I mean with standards in the jazz discourse — especially when we look at Great American Songbook standards — there is such a long lineage. If you look at a song like Stardust — the life of that song, the amount of times it's been recorded, the amount of times it's been performed — I think it was 1926, but don't quote me on that.

VIRGINIA: She said 1926. Okay. But, you know, it's a very long life for a song. And certain things kind of just end up being part of what happens when people interpret a song or a standard. There are ways to make it more original, but you are coming at something that already has a lot of history behind it. So I think for a lot of musicians, that's going to inform at least a little bit what you're thinking about playing or how you're thinking about it.

JAY: I think so.

VIRGINIA: And then it's also a matter of, for me, respecting the songs that you play. I think that more and more, especially as I get older, it's like I want to try to steer away from — no pun intended — from using these songs as vehicles to just like play my stuff. I don't want to play like Someone in Love and then start ripping 16th note lines. It's like, can I do something that's related to the intent of the song? And if it's not related, then I better change it in a way where it feels very intentional.

JAY: Right. So if you're playing your own music, there's room for you to fully be you because it's something that you did yourself — it's not attached to anybody else. You are actually creating the lineage of the song from day one.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. And I feel the same performing colleagues' music. It's why I love the project I have with Todd Marcus so much, because we play both of each other's compositions. We'll do a mix of some of my stuff, some of Todd's stuff. Every now and then we'll throw in lesser known standards or, you know, just compositions from people like Larry Willis, for example. But again, it's like we have that trust in each other where we're co-leading. He trusts me to interpret his music and be myself while doing it, and vice versa. He might do things that I wouldn't have expected, and me, same thing with him. Like I'm probably going to interpret his music in a way that maybe he wouldn't necessarily think of doing. So with more modern music, where the composer is still living and maybe we're playing together or it's part of a project like that, I kind of feel the same thing with creative license — it's like, this is like an unwritten story so far, in a way.

JAY: When I went down and heard you guys play at Smalls, I guess it was probably about a year ago.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. I think like last July.

JAY: I felt like I heard you guys creating rather than recreating. So much of the classical world — we are so often recreating. That's largely what you hear, that's what people want to hear in a concert hall, and new music is very challenging to make accessible. And that's really what I walked away feeling — like, okay, here are two people who trust each other, like each other, respect each other, making music in a format that I know in terms of rhythm section and front line. But the front line is dramatically different. And it was music that was being created right then by these people. There was no recreation process. I didn't hear things that I'd heard before. I didn't hear the same chord changes that I'd heard before. I was experiencing new things. But it wasn't like hearing new things like I'm listening to Albert Ayler — new things that are so divorced from — there was a grounding in it, but a freshness that was really really amazing.

VIRGINIA: Definitely. And in a way that's some of my favorite music to play — like when it comes to Todd's compositions as well. There's a lot of freedom. The parts themselves — like if we're playing melodies together, or harmonies, whatever — the parts that are written are actually quite specific. But then when it comes to improvising, a lot of the forms are left quite open. And I love that. I love that there's agency for whoever else is in the band. For Eric Kennedy, for example, our drummer who's an absolute powerhouse — it's like he can do his thing, and Todd is going to give him the agency to stretch out and make it his own. And I think that's the thing I like about composing my own music and playing my own music — I find myself doing the same thing. And it differs from person to person. Some people are very very specific about what they want their band to be doing. What I find myself tending towards is always more — well, I'm hiring you for a reason, and it's because I trust you. Not to make a right or wrong decision, but I trust you to do what you would do and I want that input as well. So it really feels like creating something, and not just like, okay, we're all going to have this goal of playing the standard. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love playing standards. I really really do. But there is something very very special about new music — it's like, oh, okay, we can do this together.

JAY: So now speaking of new music and new compositions, I'm going to ask you a completely unfair question. Of the new compositions we're going to hear on your record — is there one that stands out to you as meaning more? Which one of your children do you like the best?

VIRGINIA: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think just because we're talking about it — the first track on the album is Last Call at Dimitri's. This is the first single that came out. And I kind of love it because it's like part of both of those worlds. It's actually a 12-bar blues — just a standard 12-bar blues in F — but coming from like this weird, kind of mysterious openness at the beginning. It's quite ambiguous and then eventually it's like, oh, okay, that's what's happening. And for me, I like creating music like that. Not solely, but I like creating music like that because it's like, oh, there's a reference to this and a reference to that part of my history and what I've listened to and what I gravitate towards, but then it's also my own take on something that we're all familiar with.

JAY: Is Dimitri's a place or a person?

VIRGINIA: It is a place. It's a bar. That's actually I think the first song I ever wrote as well. I was a baby when I wrote it. But for some reason people seem to like it.

JAY: Well, it's a fun one. It feels really good to listen to.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. It brings delight, which is always good.

JAY: Are there any tunes that have an unusual form or something that is harder listening?

VIRGINIA: Um, one that comes to mind is actually the closer on the album, which is Eternal Return of the Same. Getting a bit into the philosophical one there. And that one actually came from a solo clarinet piece that I wrote. When I say wrote, I mean I just kind of was messing around and I came up with it. And when I actually went to write it down, I was thinking this would be a nice thing to do with quartet or with my band. And I was like, well, how do I go about writing this? Because when I was playing it, I wasn't really thinking about the meter that it was in. And then I went to write it down and I was like, okay, so it's a mix of like five-eight, a mix of three, a mix of four, and so on. So it's a mixed meter composition. And it kind of has like a very cyclical form that it follows the whole way through. So that would be one that is a little bit more unconventional.

JAY: And the improvisation happens over those mixed meters as well.

VIRGINIA: It does. Well, I made Jeffrey Keezer do that. I am soloing over three-four. But I left it in more than capable — maybe the most capable — hands. I actually finished that song and was kind of waffling on what to do with the solo section. And eventually I think I ended up coming in with a completed chart on the day of the session, and I just put it in front of Jeff. I was like, do you think you can solo over this part that alternates between five and three? And he was like, let's give it a try. And it sounded amazing. So it was like, all right, you can do that. I'll solo over three. We're good. And it's that type of thing too where it's nice where you can go into the studio and it's about that thing where — oh, I can trust this person to interpret this however he or she may see fit.

JAY: Can we get nerdy for a second?

VIRGINIA: Yeah.

JAY: What kind of clarinet do you play now?

VIRGINIA: Oh, okay. So I call it my Frankenstein. It's an R13. And I call it that because it's two different serial numbers. The top joint and the bottom joint are different serial numbers. They're both R13s from the 90s. I've been playing that instrument since I was 18 or 19.

JAY: And did it come with two different joints, or did you do that?

VIRGINIA: That came like that. I got it at a vintage clarinet shop in Toronto, my hometown. And I think at the time it was maybe like $1,200. It was quite cheap. It's ironic and sad that that's now cheap.

JAY: I know, but for a good instrument like that, in great condition —

VIRGINIA: And so you know, it was like a real full circle moment for me when I started endorsing Buffet. It was like, oh, wow — I started on an R13, I've been playing these instruments my whole life. I've had the opportunity, I've thought about switching, but I'm so happy with my horn. I love it. And I tend not to be a gear person for the most part. So when I find something that works, it's like, okay, I'm going to stick with this as long as I can. Eventually I will probably need to get a new clarinet, but I can't yet.

JAY: And did I remember right that you were playing on a crystal mouthpiece?

VIRGINIA: Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of happened by chance. I started out on a B45. I think when I was maybe in my early to mid-20s, someone gifted me a Pomarico crystal mouthpiece. I'd never seen one. I'd never heard of this material being used before for mouthpieces. And so I thought, okay, I'll try it out. I played like two notes and I was like — no, I can't do this. Absolutely not. It was so different than what I was used to that I just thought there's no way. And so I put it down. And for some reason, something told me — okay, maybe I'll try it this time for a little bit longer. The issue I was having was it was very resistant. A lot more resistance than I had been used to.

JAY: It doesn't sound like it's vibrating at all, which is a weird feeling, right?

VIRGINIA: Absolutely. So it was like, okay, let me try coming at this with maybe a softer reed and just really play into it, not expect anything. And then after a couple of weeks, it was like, oh, okay, I'm never going back. I love the crystal. That mouthpiece unfortunately broke. I mean, that's the issue with that material.

JAY: They can all break, but that's a good point.

VIRGINIA: Yeah, you definitely can't drop those. So I've been playing a Raia Aura — Italian, I guess — mouthpiece since 2020. And that one's even bigger than the Pomarico. Very very large tip opening. And I use actually a two reed.

JAY: Oh wow. So what does a practice routine look like for you?

VIRGINIA: I don't know. It's terrible. I'm on the road a lot. I spend a lot of time traveling, a lot of time touring. A lot of the time if I have a minute to practice, I'm going to sit down and look at this music for this gig coming up, or I'm going on the road, let me spend some time checking out these charts. And it's a blessing and a curse. I feel like I haven't had a regular practice routine in I don't know, years at this point. But the real great thing about that is that I'm always playing in some capacity, and I find that that still propels me forward. So if I'm playing with other people, sometimes I find in a way that that can be even more invaluable.

JAY: Your technique is very clean for somebody who doesn't — but in having this conversation with you, you're much different than me. I practice in boxes — like I practice this for this reason for this intended outcome.

VIRGINIA: Yeah, you've got a different way of going about it. To be fair, I've had those periods in my life — I've had periods of very intense practice where I was maybe doing five, six, seven hours a day and that was much more regimented where it was like, I'm going to work on this thing. I think that set me up for a lot of success for sure. And being able to take a few days off where I'm not playing and then being able to get back to it and feel like the fluidity in my ideas isn't necessarily lost — maybe just because that foundation is there. That being said, I would love to have more time to practice. When my life is busy or when I've been on the road, it is very difficult to have the energy to say, okay, let's sit down and play some long tones. And I mean just even not time on the road — the day-to-day things like admin, sending emails, booking — and I do a lot of my own tour organizing, so okay, like booking flights —

JAY: And I get exhausted just hearing all of this. It's a lot.

VIRGINIA: Yeah, it's a lot. So now in a way when I do have that time to practice, it feels more precious. It's like, oh, now I can actually sit down and really be present with my instrument. But yeah, I think right now a lot of my practice is repertoire. The way I like looking at music that I'm working on is kind of thinking about how I improvise over it. And I go from a very methodical standpoint with that — one of the things I love doing is taking a look at, let's say, the first chord, and let's say it's a C minor. What I like spending time doing is just thinking about all of the different things that I could play over a C minor chord and then working through them, playing through some of those different ideas and patterns and vocabulary, and then moving on to the next chord and doing the same thing. So within the context of practicing repertoire, there's still a certain amount of specificity to it. But I would love — I miss just being able to sit down and saying, I'm going to work on this thing for an hour, two hours.

JAY: So much of my practicing is for a different kind of specific goal — because it's music that's already written down, these are the series of notes you're going to play. And you lead a musical life that's not prescribed in the same way. There's boundaries, but it's a very different thing.

VIRGINIA: It's interesting that you bring that up. Like when I was still living in Toronto, I played with a classical piano quartet for a while. I was doing a few gigs with them and a couple of recordings and I was so nervous. I was terrified going on stage in a way that I don't feel when I play jazz. Because it's like, well, first of all, this is not my world. There's like a real sense of impostor syndrome. But also it's like, oh my god, the notes on the page — I must play this, I cannot play other things. There's no way to play it off if I don't play the right thing. I was so scared. Just terrified.

JAY: It's funny. I talked about it with Evan Christopher when he came in and did a podcast with me. I may have been one of the only people that remembers hearing him play a Brahms Sonata.

VIRGINIA: Oh, wow.

JAY: He's very funny when he reflects upon what that was like. That was back before he switched to Albert System.

VIRGINIA: Yeah. So it made a little bit more sense. Not a whole bunch more sense, but a little bit.

JAY: Wow. So where is the best place to look for you? You've got a website, I'm assuming.

VIRGINIA: Yeah, website. My website is virginiamcdonald.ca. Still rocking the Canadian URL.

JAY: I'm going to put all these in the show notes and the description so you can just click and find your way there. But what about your music? What if somebody wants to buy some music?

VIRGINIA: So it's all online. We're doing the whole streaming thing. The album has been released through a label — Cellar Music. You can find out more about that on my website, on their website, also on Bandcamp, and all the streaming services. Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, Tidal, and so on. There are streaming services that I didn't even know existed. But it's out there.

JAY: No, that's great. I will absolutely have links to everything Virginia McDonald. And what a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me here.

VIRGINIA: Thank you for having me. And Olive, who's off camera right now.

JAY: Thank you. I think it's more important to thank you.

VIRGINIA: Yeah, she's the boss.

JAY: She is the boss. And I disrupted her more than I disrupted you. But thank you so much. So listen — if you are an adult clarinet player and you're looking to up your game on the clarinet, I will also have links to me and the Clarinet Ninja Dojo, which is, if I do say so myself, really the best place to learn or relearn the clarinet if you're coming back from a 40 to 50 year layoff or less. So join us at the Clarinet Ninja Dojo. Also, if you go to my website, clarinetnja.com, there is a way to book time with me for free. And what you get is some insight into your playing, what I think you should do to make yourself a better clarinet player, and a little sales pitch at the end. That's what you pay with — is that little bit of a sales pitch. So with all that, thank you, Virginia.

VIRGINIA: Thank you, Jay. So glad to be here.

JAY: We'll see you next time on the Clarinet Ninja Podcast.

Virginia MacDonald: Forging a New Voice for Jazz Clarinet

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