Welcome to the clarinet podcast. My name is Jay Hassler. As always, I'm doing my best to bring you the finest in clarinet
information and entertainment. Today, Mr. Evan Christopher is playing us in.
Why is that, you may ask? Because Evan is here to talk with us about playing the clarinet. Now, here's what I want
you to do as you're listening to this. Jot down one or two ideas or just make a mental note of how we can take these
ideas of detail, clarity, intention, joy, uh, interpretation,
making the music the composer intended, but still making the music ours. How do
you do that? Evan's got a good handle on it. If you are a classical player or you know somebody who reads music and that's
what you want to do. There's a lot to be taken from this and translated into our own experience about imagining the
detail playing the music as if you thought of it yourself. Like there's lots of things and I want you to have
some ideas. I want your mind to be alive with how this can apply directly to what you're doing because no matter where you
are on the clarinet, this can apply to you. Now this this whole conversation is a tribute to something that's really
really important and something that I talk about with the clarinet ninja dojo which is a great place for you to learn
the clarinet. Why is it great? Because it goes to this central point that we are talking about in this conversation
which is foundational principles in the clarinet apply to whatever you want to do with the clarinet. You take those
skills, you take those foundational principles and you turn that into your own voice that you get to play music
with that comes from the skills you get from this same I would say the hub of a
wheel supposed to come out that's supposed to lead you anywhere you want to go. Now Evan and I studied with the
same clinet teacher at California State University in Long Beach in the early 90s which is where we initially became
friends and uh this person's name is Gary Bulvier. he is a terrific person. And Gary, if you're listening, I want
you on this podcast, please, to talk about these things that Evan and I are using so so passionately about, which is
these foundational principles. Uh because you're you are in the center of the hub. That is all of that. And so
whenever you hear us talking about Gary, that is who we're talking about. Uh he has had a profound impact on me, my
life, my climate plane. And the same for Evan. Enjoy this conversation with Evan. Leave a review. Five stars. comment,
like, everything. Go check out Evan. Go check out me. Join the dojo. Come on,
let's play some clarinet. Uh, anything you can do to encourage the algorithm to put this out to people that love the
clarinet as well. That would be fantastic because I would love for as many people as possible to get to hear
this conversation and the others that I've had on the podcast. No further ado, I present you Evan Christopher, 1992.
Gosh, do I do I have to? Yes, you have to. Wow. So, yeah, we we both had more hair.
We did. But I think that's probably the only difference. Okay. So, all right. It's 1992. Yes. There is
parking lot. A giant parking lot. Uh I think in 1992 I might have been driving
the Volkswagen. You were? I had a I think it was red. I think so.
Red Carmen Gia uh 72. You had maybe a silver Corolla
with Alaska plates. Holy crap. Yes. Don't be right on that. I didn't I
didn't have the the uh Alaska plates for long because I got I got a ticket for them. No, no, no. When I met you. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. But no, you're right. When Yeah. So, um, we don't actually have a class together,
but we have the same private instructor, the great Gary Boier. Yes. And we did in
the mornings, I think maybe once or twice a week, we did a a clarinet ensemble
class of some kind. Yeah, we did like a studio class. Like, it wasn't necessarily an ensemble class. We may
have done that with some of the some of the classes, but that's when you know when we'd all get together and play for each other and Mhm. Yeah. and all that
kind of stuff. And then were you also playing some saxophone or
was that later? I was playing saxophone for sure. Yeah, I was very interested in playing saxophone at that point. Uh much
much less than much more than I am now for sure. From the parking lot, there's a little grassy null that takes you to uh an
underground bunker that has about a dozen practice rooms. No, it was like 50
practice rooms, but yes. Oh, really? Okay. It was a lot. It was a lot. It went down a long way. We just never went down there. It went all the way down
underneath the the recital hall and it was sort of it was Oh, okay. I didn't know that. I didn't uh You never I
didn't I didn't use them that much. I didn't have a problem practicing at home. Um and but we commuted. We don't
we didn't live on the campus. We had to commute. And I can't remember where you lived exactly, but I was um David Sils
and I shared a townhouse uh just it was probably five miles away. Well,
it was just over the Orange County border, right? Because I think it was technically it was Stanton. Yeah. I just
moved from Arizona. I I'd gotten frustrated with my with my studies in Arizona and uh I was coming out to study
with Gary and uh I remember I didn't actually meet you. You you've heard me
tell you this story before. I had never met you before and we had to sign up for a spot to audition for the band and and
so you had to write your name and what instruments you play. And so, you know, as as a as a nerd, I walked up. I put my
I put my name and I put clarinet and right above right above I guess you had just done it and it and it said and then
Evan Co, the name that you used back then and then it said that old licorice
stick. I wrote that. Yes, you did. I thought, who the heck is this Joker?
Yeah. And then here we are 30 years later. I know this Joker very well. Um,
but yeah, it was it was it was Evan Christopher Kunst and then I dropped the Kunst and then Well, no, but what I
remember like obviously it's your name. You would remember better than me. You weren't even using Christopher at all. Was there a time that you didn't use?
Well, I mean that's a lot of letters. It never you put you put your whole name so it never and that cuts letters off.
Yeah. Even Even now my airplane tickets say Evan Kristoff.
U No. And then I remember we we played in the wind ensemble and we sat next to each other for a little while. Got it.
Yeah. And uh there was a there was a fella who looked like the muppet Sam the Eagle.
His name was uh Curtis. Yes. I think he just recently passed away, so let's be nice. Oh, sorry. No, I
didn't know that. No, I you know, actually, I'm just kind of guessing that. Uh but no, I Well, who's not being
nice now? He's could still be alive. Yeah, I'm writing him off already. I'm
not guessing that. I do think I heard that, but I but I may be wrong because well Sam the Eagle on the Muppet Show was quite regal. So
he was a regal eagle. It's not not being insulting. He actually I took conducting from him. It was pretty it was a good
class. I got out of that. He was I I just remember him being uh revered uh
and feared in a very particular way. Like people people at the school really wanted to impress him. Like that that
that was my take on it. I don't think you cared. Well, so look, but so just to
uh it was my junior year. I came in as a as a as a as a junior because I'd done all my undergraduate stuff at the at the
junior college level. So I when I came in I only had two years left. Well then I then I guess we came at the same time
kind of maybe. So I I I you know it's funny because when you know when you come in halfway through you don't know who else is coming in halfway through. I
thought that you'd been there for a long time. You seemed more known than I did for sure. Like I nobody knew me. Uh but
but but let me tell you when when I I all of a sudden it you made sense to me because some Brian Bri Brian Wallace
says, "Oh, we got to go hear Evan play at the Brian knew more cool stuff about what was going on in the world than
anybody else." And it was pre- internet, so you couldn't research anything. So you had to know somebody that knew the stuff to go see, right? So Brian Brian
always seemed to know what to do. And he was he was he was already playing in the on the SCA scene a little bit. a little
I I I think that that really hit a little bit a couple couple years after that. But but but but he always knew exactly what was happening. And so we
went to the for halfbrow and that was the first time it actually heard I heard you actually play the clarinet the way
you play the clarinet. [Music]
[Applause] [Music]
[Music]
[Music]
[Music]
Doo doo doo doo doo doo.
[Music]
[Music]
Hey.
[Music]
Hey. Hey. [Music] Heat.
[Music]
Heat. [Music]
[Music]
because, you know, hearing you play in band was not really uh revealing of what your
actual skill set is. Not that not that you weren't doing well and you played fine. I do remember I do remember one
day you you put your client down and you started to write the chords of of whatever corral or thing that we were
playing. You were just sort of madly scribbling the chords. I thought his ears are way better than mine. I mean you could have just been making stuff
up. I don't think so. Oh no. I was already big on taking shortcuts for my
reading. I still take shortcuts for my reading. So I will use I will use chord nomenclature just to make it so I don't
have to read all the notes. That's hilarious because So, so then, so then we went to hear you play at the forward halfbrow and and and I was like, "Oh,
I get what he does now." Yeah. But that's but that was in so in the early 90s I was still playing Bame System and
I had never even I don't think I I didn't know I didn't have an outer system. So, and I think I was playing
gosh, I mean probably a probably a janusa or something relatively closed.
So maybe even if I was switching at all, it might have been a stock Vandor 5JB or
something like that. So I don't know that I was playing I don't know that I was playing like anything like I do now.
Well, I Okay. No, I would I I would say that that's true. But I I I want to attach my of course I want to make it
about me, my my remembrance of things because it's very specific, but I just remember hearing you play and thinking
to myself, oh, he's not interested in playing the clarinet the way I'm interested like we're not we're not
trying to play the same music, right? Because but at the same time, I very much would I I I was studying jazz. I
wanted to be a jazz player, but even as I was doing it, I was sort of aware that
well, I can do this and I can be serviceable at it. I wasn't what Evan
was like and and and that, you know, when you want to do something that always hurts a little bit, but at the same time, it's also nice to be very
close to it and uh uh and so yeah, you were definitely playing a Bame, but there there was two things that really
struck me. And I think you've heard me say this before, like it was it was the the presence on stage, right? The the
the it was a very clear musical intent, but then the the most beautiful part
about it was during the break how incredibly elegant and charming you were to all the old ladies that came to the
Hoffra to hear you play. Yeah, I have my old people. Well, and and I just remember I vividly remember you saying
to we were talking when we came up to you and you said it was it was absolutely not creepy. It might sound
creepy the way I say it, but it was but it basically said, "Hey, you know, your husband's lucky that I got to go play that. I got to play music all the time
because I'd love to have a dance with you or something or something." It was something that was so incredibly charming, warm, and human and very uh
you know, inviting uh in a way that was not creepy. The way I said it may have been creepy, but uh but I thought, "Oh,
okay." So then, so then but then but then as I got to know you, I got to I'm
still working this out. What's a put on and what's actually like like your your real
personality. Not to put on in a bad way, but what what's part of the presentation? Because the thing that's
always been fun for me is to see your presentation because it's great music, but it's also delivered in a way that is
is really to me enchanting and inviting and human. Yeah. You know, you have to
get to that place faster than you might naturally. So, that part's a little bit
put on. It's like you're you are yourself, but you're you're yourself on
someone else's timetable, if that makes sense. I think right. Yeah. You have a very limited amount of time to not just
be yourself, but to show yourself. So whether it's the 15 minutes before a gig or the 15 minutes after a gig or the 45
minutes or 75 minutes during a gig, you you have to force yourself to
distill yourself into something that's more uh direct. You don't get to take
the the time with people that you would. Um and I think this is why I don't I
actually don't really enjoy music live musical performance anymore. um you because there is something a little bit
um I'll say artificial about that process. Not not dishonest, just a
little bit artificial because you're just on someone else's, you know, you're on someone else's schedule. It's not
your Well, I I get it and forgive me if I made it sound like it wasn't genuine. Oh, no. I I get it. I I struggled I
struggled with that cuz I I don't you know and then also you're you know if if you're obligated to say a narrative if
the music's supposed to have some narrative that you want to convey you have to find a way to convey it possibly
with more enthusiasm than you are predisposed to. The time by which we've
known each other is longer than the time we didn't know each other in our lives. Right. So there was That's true. We're all there there's 20 years I didn't know
you and now there's 32 years that I do know you. Right. So like it's swayed that way and as as a friend and as a
fan, one of the things that I I really it it it gets me every single time that
even if I'm you know if I see you before a gig and you know and you're you're in some version of Grumpy Old Man and this
as soon as the clar goes in your mouth there is something that you can't stop
from exuding joy right when you're when you're playing music. Maybe you don't want to admit this. I don't know. But like I mean there's something there's
something that that comes out of you that is it's it's magnetic and it's exciting and you know I don't I don't
know how somebody could do it the way that you do it without actually having some feeling of joy and excitement going
on in them. Um uh it just the short answer is that cynicism is a
form of optimism in a way right? M cynicism is a form of optimism. You
can't really be a cynic unless you have some ideal
that that that the world isn't meeting, right? So that's quite optimistic in a
way, right? Because there's there's some ideal. I mean, if you're if you were if you're a true pessimist, you actually just wouldn't care. But I I think I
think cynicism, you know, you can express it verbally and you can, you know, but but um you know, it's playing
music um live music is it's it's a bit of a sport. I mean, you know, there's
still there's still a way to win the game and still a way to lose the game, right? I mean, and if uh um who wants to
hear somebody actually play the music that fits the mood that they're in at that given moment? Well,
That that reminds me of of at Radio City and there was a certain couple years
where the band car would roll up on stage and then we'd roll back and the Rockheads would do their thing and then
the and we'll say, you know, Merry Christmas and waving and smiling and kicking and then as soon as the curtain
comes down, everybody's energy goes like like all the Rockats, everybody backstage who have done maybe three or
four shows a day, have another two more, whatever, like the incredible schedule they do, like all of a sudden the act goes goes away because the curtain's
down and no one could possibly have that kind of energy in their regular life and do three or four. Yeah. But that makes
that makes perfectly good sense because not just as a performer, but you can genuinely want somebody to have a merry
Christmas even if you're not. Sure. Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. But but
there but the thing I love about it is the spectacular nature of the Christmas spectacular, right? is that that's the
the presentation of it is so intense that it couldn't I mean I can in a certain way it couldn't possibly be
actually felt by every individual performing in the show. That would be an unreasonable thing to expect of the world. Of of course of course and you're
and you're actually you're actually you're being mindful about other things, you know, like what you're supposed to
be doing. But here's the connection. Here's the connection that's that's interesting is that like really as an audience member and I've I've seen the
Christmas spectacular once or twice and I've seen you play a lot of times and the a the ability to suspend that that
the disbelief of like like I know I know that like if I think about it, you may
not be in a great mood, but the way that you're playing doesn't doesn't exude that at all. It actually feels quite
quite different than that. Um, and but it's funny because I'm I'm having such a
good time. I don't ever stop to think about that. I don't care. Yeah. But then once you once once you're actually in
the act of making music, I mean, doesn't all that stuff just have to be put on hold? Doesn't your own your own little
your own little world and your own little sad feelings? Well, that all that has to be put on hold for for you know,
whatever the ascribed ascribed amount of time that you have to weeple around the stages. Well, well, that's something
that that uh I've gotten into lots of conversations about, particularly with people that don't play. Like when the
idea of music and art is to have an effect on somebody, it's not for the artist to have that feeling that they're
trying to have somebody get while they're trying to get someone to have that feeling. We're not trying to meet
here. The music is meeting you there as an individual. It doesn't matter. Sure.
But and and I think that it's one of those things that uh people that love music and art kind of don't want to
believe that. They want to believe that it's a shared moment in a different way. It is a shared moment. I know. I Yeah.
And it's it's an interesting thing. But let's get back to the clarinet for a second because then Okay. So So we were
friends in California. Yeah. where where our friendship I think really turned a
page was a chance meeting around 96th Street in New York when I just happened
to see you on the street. Can you place that? I was trying to place that the other day. Was it 2000ish?
Uh yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean based on so sad based on who I was married to and
what I was Yeah. Yeah. But it was here. It was it was it was it was up here. It was upper west side. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. It was It was definitely on
Broadway in uh the '9s on Yeah. And like not far from symphony space. Yeah. And this is like this is like preocial
media, right? So, it was one of those things of like, oh my
but but to me to to me I think that the nature of seeing somebody that you were friends with in a completely different
context and you said oh playing this thing out the out of the library back where the world the world's fair was out in Queens at the at the library and and
uh we came out to see you play and and then we were back in touch and it was it was much easier to be back in touch.
Yeah. You know from that point because at that point you were living in New Orleans still, right? or
either San Antonio. Either San Antonio or Yes, there was a weird there was a weird inbetweeny thing. So, um so after
uh after we graduated uh I hung out in Southern California for about one more
year. Um and then in October of 94 to New Orleans um this the the very
beginning of 96 San Antonio that was about three years and then there was
this kind of weird transitional period where I wasn't sure where I was going to end up but it was more between upstate
New York and you know I was talking to people about you know how do you how do
you get closer to New York City and then if I really wanted to do that I went through a period where I didn't want to
play music at all and that was my first period where I didn't really want to play music anymore. Um, and then started
uh heading back to New Orleans around 200 uh officially probably around 2001
again. So the period that in question I might have been upstate and actually
coming down um to the city. This would have been around 911. This would have been um kind of right kind of in that
period where I'm just transitioning back to New Orleans. Um, but as far as as far
as studying clarinet, it was really only those couple years with Gary. Well, well, because it was at that point that
um I when you said, "Oh, hey, I play a gig down at the Cinjun, which was like on 16th and 8th." That's when I first
heard you playing on an Albert system. Yeah, I had switched to Albert System by then. And I remember I walked in and I I
told you this at the time. I don't know if you remember this. I thought I said to myself, "Why is Evan the only one with a microphone?" because the sound
projected so it it actually sounded like you're the only one with the microphone.
I said I said I asked you I said why are you going with the mic what are what are what are what are what are what are what are what are what are what are you talking about I don't have a microphone like like what is that transition from
Bane uh the BAM system to the Albert system because I do remember there's a couple things on Albert system
that actually are a little bit reminiscent of saxophone and if you ever play recorder there's a couple things
that are a little bit reminiscent of of actual playing recorder um and there's a
on this particular Albert system there's a tiny bit of a spread so there was some muscle memory that allowed me to
actually switch systems back and forth because there's just enough of a spread to to kind of lock in that other thing.
Um, but it was a very gradual transition and then I couldn't play the game system
wrong. Um, but I remember certain gigs you would have both. Oh yeah. I I
remember coming to somewhere where there were some things you would play on the BM system. Wow. Interesting. And uh it I
don't think it was that long. I don't that I don't remember how long it was because I also I I I know that like
there was a certain period of time where I would only see you play once and then a year later I'd see you play again. So
to me it's like those two things are right next to each other but it was the whole year of your life in between where things are changing and things are
happening. You know as we're talking about this I can remember I mean I have very distinct memories of several things
that I carried from from studying with Gary into into the music. I mean, as as
we're talking, I'm remembering specific things. Um, when you mentioned uh uh
when we were when you mentioned the type of music that we were playing, I mean,
or or the reason that we make music, what that connection is. Um, I remember very specific things especially about
phrasing where from a very technical uh standpoint you know what you're trying
to achieve and what uh you know where the where where you're trying to meet
the composer at their intentions right um where
you're trying to find the freedoms for yourself in their music right so there
very specific things I remember um from Gary um when you mentioned thing about of you know playing loudly. I remember
some specific things that Gary and you know working with Gary about just the difference between the way resonance
works with the clarinet as opposed to instruments that are more uh directional. Right. Right. Um um I
remember so a couple uh couple minutes ago you mentioned the idea that uh that
we weren't really doing the chord symbol idea. Um, I remember that that was
actually coming coming a little bit from from Gary just I just already had the nomenclature to to learn how to kind of
read ahead so that you could see things in larger groups and not really have to, you know, read note to note to note to
note to note. Um, so all of that u I can I can remember specific things about
just uh even even articulation choices. Um, I remember when you talked about the
transition from BAME to outer system. I remember specifically what things that I kept in order to kind of develop
facility on the outer system. What what things that Gary and I, you know, worked on with the with the close scales and
exercises, right? I I don't think I ever I don't think I ever owned the whole
close book. I think I always had this this this, you know, 30-page thing with the skills and exercises. Right. Right.
Um, you know, so I remember I mean a lot of it goes right back to those what I consider kind of an intensive two years
of of cla work. It's ironic. You never knew this about me. I had the opportunity to if I continued with where
I started college, I would have eventually possibly been studying with Mitchell Lurri. He was in LA where I was at USC. Funny. But I didn't but I didn't
come to USC as a clarinet major. I came as a commercial studies or commercial
music uh major which was more I it was sort of the way to say jazz studies
without saying jazz. So yeah, you know, a lot of students want to say jazz. Yeah, they were they were ahead of their
time. Um, so, uh, and I didn't want to study classical saxophone. That just
didn't seem that seemed necessary. Well, that's weird. But I've only heard you say really like things about loving the
saxophone. I detest the saxophone. Well, I want to
share traditionally, don't I? Yeah. Yeah. I I want to share the funniest thing I've ever heard anybody say uh about the saxophone, which was, you
know, there the going back to that time that you quit music for a while or wanted to quit music for a while and you
said you were doing construction and uh and I and I I made some sort of comment telling the story of like yeah, you
know, like my narrative was much different than yours. I was like, you know, Evan is so committed to like, you
know, like really wanting to have his art be his true art that he was willing to work construction to to make that
happen. Right. Specifically paving. Specifically paving. I was on a paving crew for a minute. Yeah. Yeah. And
asphalt. But your response was, "Well, I could have made a living playing the music, but I would had to play the saxophone."
That still happens. It still happens. There's just like a handful of people that know I play it.
Well, and ironically, every time every time I'm I'm I'm I'm blowing dust off it. I'm
pulling it out of the back of the closet and I'm I'm making I spend about 10 minutes making sure it sort of
functions. Yeah, I I remember very vividly playing
some gig with the the Cal State Long Beach Jazz Band and we were playing at some sort of outside place downtown
and we were playing um What a memory you have. Yeah. Well, I mean, it gets spotty
in a second because we were playing something that had the a pretty significant tenor solo in it. And you
did this, you know, and again, maybe I'm projecting this upon you, but you sort of played the history of the tenor saxophone in your soul. You started out
sort of sounding like Coleman Hawkins, kind of switching to Lond Buster Young, kind of switching to Don Bias, and then started playing stuff that was like more
contemporary, you know, like sort of like Breerish type of sound. It has. And and I was like, that's irritating.
It's irritating someone do that because at the time on the clarinet I did that.
On the No, on the tenner saxophone you did that. Oh, good heavens. That's when I I when I was thinking about your
playing and how you go about the process of playing, it was clear to me that you have an ability to hear something in
your ear tonally and harmonically that translates very, you might not say it's
easy, but to me it seems easy to be able to turn that into something on an instrument. And that's one of the things
that's I think really really powerful about how we learn and how we can play stuff is right. It goes we we imagine it
and then we make it happen and having the skills on the instrument to make it happen is how it happens. But it's it we
we spend so much time learning our instruments which is like that's a bad thing that we forget that we have to
hear it first and and the the jazz background really never lets you can't let go of the fact that you have to hear
it first. It was the tip of the iceberg. But Gary, I mean, I can remember having conversations with Gary about voicing.
And it's plain and simple. To me, voicing, voicing is everything about
having different um accents. Like every ethnic,
every ethnic music that I've that I've kind of dabbled with, you know, the the differences about having the right
accent is largely is largely voicing. Yeah, I think that that's true. Yeah.
And that's and that's from Gary and and and and and pitch pitch is largely is largely
voicing. You don't I mean you don't want it to be you don't want it to be pressure. So if it's not going to be if
it's going to be something besides pressure changing and adjusting. I mean maybe a little bit pressure but if you
don't want it to be pressure changing a lot then it's going to be fierce. It's going to be
that's all Gary.
[Music]
I don't [Music]
[Applause] [Music]
[Music]
Yeah. I mean that that that's that's where all my sort of foundational things
about how I play and how I teach that's really important because that is the whole thing right I mean that really associating our sound with with our
voice and how are we using our voice and and what kind of accent goes along with it because like when I play uh I play
things in a particular style like I I play classical clarinet but then I my strength is I can play a variety of
styles but I I'm like playing quote unquote in the style you actually play a real like classical
clanet is a real style. I don't want to say like I do that, but like when I when I hear you play, you're playing in the style of a New Orleans jazz clan player
of a particular era, but it's a modern version that has a lot of you in that, but you're playing that style like which
which I feel very envious of because I want to be able to play a style rather
than in the style of, right? Because because I can I can make it sound appropriate for music that is serving
another need like a Broadway show. I can play a very convincing New Orleans jazz clan player in that context. If I'm
standing next to you, it's like I can't do it at all. Right. And and that's and and that that's that's one of always
been one of the frustrating things for me because I want to play genuinely in a lot of styles. And I I can really only
do one. I mean, classical is a pretty broad category, but within that frame.
And and it's it's funny because I think then that might also be I don't know. You tell me. Is that true for you? you
have a style of playing, but I also think you don't want to play other styles of music, right? So, you don't
have the same sort of rub with it that I do because I very much want to. It's just I, you know, I I don't know uh what
I want to do. If I want to do anything, I just know that if I'm going to do
something, it's gota it's kind of got to sound right. All right.
Um, now I'm I've been dabbling with uh with with some other uh some I guess
musics of the Near East. So I'm learning a little bit about the music of Istanbul and the the Mac system
that's in in classical Turkish music and that has a very that for clarinet that's
a thing. Um, I studied a little I did a workshop of of Persian nay with this
monster playing playing nay and I just was using a C clarinet to try to imitate some of the same sounds. So, but you
know there's there's um there's a certain each of these things have a
certain type of ornamentation and a certain certain um accent and it's uh I
I struggle I don't think I want to play these styles of music but if I'm going
to take the trouble to do it I really really try to get down to the
minutia of what makes it sound the way it does. Um there there was a a Greek
clarinet just passed away. Petra Lucas and and his um
the with the whole Greek music. That's a whole another thing. And it's all it's all it's all here. Um but do I want to
actually play that kind of music? I don't I don't I don't know. For myself, for my own pleasure, I guess. I feel a
conflict in you at times about playing like what it takes for you. Like I feel like it's taking something from you to
play the music or to play music, not the music, but just music. And that you know
cuz you you pretend to be retired sometimes. Pretend [Laughter]
Well, you know, look, our kids are almost the same age. We we got a we have another we got another thing we're we're
working on right now. the the first time I thought about it, the the juxtaposing us, you know, you and your car and me
and my 83 Corolla, you know, back then in in the early 90s versus the two of us walking around the Bronx Zoo with our
kids. Like, how did we get from there to there? I didn't see it for either one of us. I had no idea you were going to be
as interested in being that as you are. I had no idea I was going to be interested in being a dad as much as I
am. And then there we are. And then as I was cleaning up the house today, I thought, "No, Evan's probably cleaning up his house, too." totally you know
looking forward to talking to you today and uh you know and so yeah that's pretty much what we do right we clean the house I'm supposed to be doing
laundry now I still I still love the clan I still love the music I still love doing the teaching the playing I love
everything it's just weird when something else is in every way more
important than that like it's so much different than it felt to do it back when it was the most important thing
there's an area where Gary and I never had a discussion um you
Gary was a great teacher. Uh because so here's the thing. Um as a student, if
you actually don't know what you want to learn, that's going to be a problem. If
you're a teacher and you don't adjust to what the student is actually
aspiring to do, that's a problem. Um maybe not when they're super young, but I didn't study music super young, right?
talking about talking about university level. And if you're going to if you're going to if you're going to waste the
time, spend the time and resources to study music in college, then know what
you want out of the situation and have a private instructor that can that can they can they can modify or that can
kind of see within kind of what you envision two things. they that they have the ability
to see what things you might need in your toolbox to do what you say you want to
do and also to to you know make sure that that the student is isn't being too
narrow in the thinking and is actually uh you know getting to know some other
choices through you know through what you're doing some of the things I mean for Gary it was more things that were
kind of just universal. This is clarinet stuff. Doesn't really matter what you're going to do. Doesn't matter for whom
you're going to do it. Doesn't matter with whom you're going to do it, but this is some very This is some clarinet stuff. And that's what I need. It's what
I need most of all. And that's what I got out of it. But we didn't have any conversations about, you know, what you
going to do, where are you going to do it, who you going to perform. It was just kind of uh I was already playing gigs when I was in those last two years
of school and um had very had great instructors that would just let me put
on a walk band tape recorder and fall asleep in the corner of the room and
then and then you know listen to the class in the car on my way to a gig or something like that. I mean that that
you were going down to you were going down to San Diego for a long time playing at Crochies. I mean there was a
lot of back and forth. That was Southern California. you had to drive everywhere. We just uh was going everywhere. It was
a lot of car time. A lot of car time. Um looking at it from a young person's standpoint that's going into music that
that wants to go into music. The more specific you are, the more you're able to gain the skills to do that very
specific thing you want to do. Your specific thing was super specific, right? I mean, because it was I mean,
it's it's jazz up to a certain year kind of, right? is is from a certain place. I
think that's how it started. That's how it started. I want I'm thinking back I'm thinking back to you know when you start studying with Gary. Yeah. And but that
but more as that period of of a of a musician's life where it's it's a tough
thing because if the idea is to make a living playing music that's that's pretty general. It's specific but it's
general. And the more specific you get, like I want to do this, like I I want
like I'm I'm making this up, but I want to play New Orleans jazz clarinet just as it was played in 1928. Okay. So there
you have a specific set of goals. It's very narrowly defined, which means you can acquire those goals more efficiently
when you're directed towards it. But it also means that's a much harder way if that's your skill as opposed to being
able to do a wide variety of things. But being able to do a wide variety of things means that in order to succeed,
you're getting hired to do things that you're less of a specialist at. Right?
So, it's a weird it's a weird and it's harder to acquire that that broad set of skills. I'm not close enough to that
community, the teaching community to know um if the goal is for their
students to be, you know, have
Well, but I I was thinking of it more from the profession. I was thinking more from the student standpoint, you know, right? Like of where they're directing
themselves. Yeah. Um I I I
don't teach enough to have you know if I teach the students have an idea about
what they want what they want to work on. I don't have students that are kind of blank slates and don't have a clue
what they want to work on and I don't know what I would do with a student that didn't really I don't know what I would do with someone who didn't already kind
of have an idea about what they were what their goals were right. Um, but I
also don't know I don't know what exists for them out there uh as as professional
musicians if they're going to be very narrow. I'm meeting in in New York I in
New York it's tricky. I don't know the whole specialization thing doesn't seem to be I I I get a lot of uh oh I just
want a little bit of that. I want to be able to do a little bit of that. I want you know I want to get some of that thing you know whatever that thing is.
And that thing could be a a style, could be um
uh it could be a um uh a skill set in terms of reading. I
want to be able to play a I want to play be able to read enough to play a Broadway show. I want to be able to uh
you know uh I think there there's a sort of that whole jack of all trades in this is still kind of a thing. And I don't I
think the reason that you just don't have a lot of people They're rising to be
amazing artists because they're pretty busy just trying to
do as many things as they can to to pay the rent. Well, yeah. I mean, it's it's
funny to think about like what what it takes
to be when I say a young person, I mean between 18 and 25. If like if you if
you're holding the clarinet, it's not like pianist or violinist where if you're going to be a concert violinist,
you've got to already know the violin pretty well by the time you're seven, right? I mean, like clarinet's not like
that, right? But but in terms of of even separated out further from the the being able to play the clarinet versus
musically having a really refined idea of what it is that you want to do, like
what is it that you want to go out in the world with the clarinet and do what? Yeah. Yeah. You know, but but like for
me, like so many of the students that I teach, well, all the students that I teach now, I'm trying to make it so that
it's an adult amateur community of of people, it's not they're not trying no one's trying to go out and make a living
playing music. I mean, they might they might play a gig, but they're not trying to make a living playing music. And it's
very freeing to teach people who don't have their goal is to find meaning and
joy in the clarinet. Yeah. Which I which I I can help them with very very much. But it's much different than the the
20-year-old who wants to make a mark in the world. I get that. Um, you know,
I've taught older people that, you know, there's this I struggle with this. It's okay. What do you do with this? Uh, the
student has an idea about kind of what they want to be able to do what they want to play. And then you say, okay, well, all right. So, you know, there's
some areas where we need to fill in some some fill in some information. um we
have to get down to I I mean I have students that basically just outright said oh well I want to do that but I
don't really want to learn harmony but I don't really want to I don't
really want to you know do exercises on clarinet right I mean can you imagine that you know they want to be able to do
that thing at a level just just just enough to be able to do something that
they heard on a record but they don't actually want to learn how to play the clarinet or or they they want They want
to be able to improvise, but they don't really want to study harmony, right? I
mean, I don't know what you do. I had a friend you put it really really well, I guess. Well, those are people that just want to want to learn how to play the
clarinet to want to want to learn. No, I mean, they they Yeah, it's not
about the clarinet for them. It's they want to be able to do a certain thing on the clarinet, but but they there's the
there seems to be a disconnect. To do that, you got to learn how to play the clarinet. Oh, why do I have to do you
know? No, but I'm not trying to I'm not trying to do that. I'm not trying to learn the clarinet. I just want to play
music using the clarinet, you know. It's uh right, it's it's uh
it's tough to to align all of that in terms of managing expectations, right?
Because I think in in so much of our lives, if we have an expectation, even if it's an expectation we don't like, if
we buy into that expectation, we can we can live with that. It's just, you know, somebody who thinks that something can
happen without doing all those things has an expectation that's not fulfillable, right?
I mean, even even even with some of the people we went to school with, I was astounded about what they actually
listen to in their spare time. And it had had very little to do with the type of music that they had to to play in the
ensembles and how they what they it had very little. I'm not saying you had to they all had to just love classical
music night and day, but I was pretty surprised how kind of weirdly illiterate
some of our peers were about the music they're working on. No, I I I know what you I know what
you're saying because like because like I never understood like if you want to do this I mean because quite honestly if
you want to play music for money you're making a fundamentally bad choice with your time with your time, right? I mean
like it's like it's like making money. If you if any of us spent the amount of time doing something that's has a high
earning potential, we could make a lot of money if we did it with the energy that we learn how to play these
instruments, right? So as as a as a value proposition financially, it's a terrible idea. But if you're that insane
to want to do it, how how could it be that you're not listening to that music? How could you not want to be a part of
this in a particular way? It never made any sense to me. And we didn't have all the tools we have now. I mean, I don't I
don't even think we had iPods back then. I mean, we still cassette still had cassette tapes. Um, but now I mean, you
know, Ela's learning cello. I mean, and we can listen to multiple versions of any piece that she's working on. We can
find we can go to a website and find the original score. We can find text versions. you can do this stuff and you
can get you can enjoy the kind of nerdy research that you would think musicians would just do, but there's just so many
people that just don't really do any of that. Well, but speaking of my second favorite child, you know, in next to my
own child, Elena is definitely my second favorite child. like like she approaches the cello with that same joy that you
play the clinet when I a couple new years ago when when she in her pajamas
played some cello for the the whole group of people at the party. Like it definitely had that uh that spark of
like simultaneously like I love what I'm doing and check this out. Yeah. Check
out what I'm about to do right here. Yeah. You know, we're we're struggling. This
year was a this year she she finally started to learn how to practice and that was a bit of a struggle. She has
her teacher is great the same way the same uh you know I I don't know did did
Gary have younger students than than college age? He at some point in his
life I'm sure he did. I don't think when we were working with him he did. Right. So her teacher has early childhood experience and he recognized you know so
Elena has a good ear. She can play things by ear, right? The trick is to actually okay, you know, to to use that
skill set, but at the same time, let's focus on what's actually on the page, right? So, so we're we're we're
struggling a little bit from from a from a teaching standpoint and from a learning standpoint. It's really important that if you have uh a skill
set that is in congruent with everything else that that can be a great advantage,
but then if you proceed along too much using that advantage, it turns into a real detriment because the other skills
atrophy or never grow the way that they need to, right? you know, and then that's but as a kid, I'll worry about
that later. Check this out. Yeah. Yeah, I get it. We're right in that kind of in
between, you know, because now there's a there's there's a an expectation of a certain level, which is pretty advanced
for her age. And there's an expectation, a certain level of detail that, you know, you and I didn't really get to
until to in college really, you But but speaking to that detail, I mean, get getting back
to the clarinet and learning music and learning the clarinet and kind of putting it all together. That's the
thing that is, I think, the easiest thing to miss as a learner is the need to have the most
specific idea of what you want to play, the most detailed idea of what you want to play in your mind to try and create.
The idea being that like if you have a detailed version of what you want to play, you're going to get a much better
version of that same thing if it's foggy. I remember watching a watching Bill Evans talk about approximating
things like, "Oh, that's approximately what that song is, but it's not exactly what that that it's not exact. You need
to be less approximate." And you know, it's funny in in my world of loving and
studying jazz, that idea gets so much more clearly articulated than in
classical music of having of the most specific idea that you can of what you want to play. And then, you know,
bringing this idea of how to practice to develop those skills to actually realize and create that thing. That's that's
amazing. Speaking of speaking of you and another performance that I saw Well, please please please tell me it wasn't
my recital where I was doing a very approximate version of the Hindithth. I
I don't think I was I don't think I was at your recital that let's just say it was very approximate.
Not the just just the third movement, you know, when it starts doing the 54 stuff. But but I remember you were
playing at Joe's Pub and you you walked on stage and you were playing Junug Walls and you you played it with this
super unfocused sound all the way through. And it was and it was in a very
very intentional choice and one that I would say is not easy to play that consistently
unfocused in in a way that was almost a sub tone but not a sub tone and it was all throughout the register of your
clarinet. And I just remember thinking to myself that I loved I mean first of
all actually I love the choice but even more than that I love that there was a choice to be seen and it was a very it
was a specific choice and not only did I think it was a good choice but it was executed really really well.
[Music]
I'm coming. [Music]
[Applause] [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music]
Woohoo! [Music]
Doo!
[Music] [Applause] [Music]
[Music]
And that's that's the sort of freedom I what you do but I don't really have in most of what I do right because
that what's you know if I play in you do not want to have this this kind of
mixture right of non pitch
sound with uh I'm sorry non-pitch colors to your sound right right right you don't that's
not really a desired thing in so much of ensemble you have to stick within the tradition
from which it came like the the quoteunquote performance practice which is such a dry term but but how it's done
right but when you're when you're leading your own group and you're creating your own thing you can do whatever you want that and that's always
been the thing and hearing you play that's always been so impressive is that it does come from a tradition but it's
clearly not bound by a tradition that that and that's always you know like
like I feel like it's a the way I always describe It is Evan plays New Orleans jazz music from the, you know, early
20th century, but like it's new. Like it's like it's new music. I mean, you
know, when these when those guys recorded it was new for them. Well, well, but that's the thing. When I hear So, you know, so I'm not going to say
anybody's name, but like when I hear music, whether it's classical, jazz, whatever
it is, that feels like we're just recreating things over and over. we're just recreating what it was like. Almost
like we're we're looking at a picture of what it was like. But music that really
moves people is music that sounds like it was created today even though it wasn't right. This the style wasn't
created today, but it's got that life to it. And that's that that's where I feel like in in hearing you play. That's that
I mean that that takes me from a friend that is interested to actually like a fan and somebody that wants to go check
something out. I mean, what are you what are you putting on display? Is the is the are you putting the process on
display? Are you putting are you telling a story are are you is the music telling
a story or are you telling a story about the composer? You know, it's like a friend of mine gave the analogy um uh
one of our parent friends gave the analogy, you know, she has a dance background. She's like, uh, you know,
love love Balanchin's choreography, but is that what the performance is about?
Is the perform am I supposed to walk away going, wow, Balanchin's choreography was magnificent, or am I
supposed to actually be enjoying the dance performance, right? You know, it's just it's we have that struggle too,
don't we? um you know because this uh I remember let's see I remember
specifically that the music I was working on and the stuff that I couldn't play now if I had to I remember working on this wonderful little Martin
concertina piece and it was it had you know had harmony things in it that were
kind of kind of quirky and stuff like that and it had some good energy very dable energy to it um kind of like you
know some of the bar talk stuff but but um but I I
you know, I I was already it was easy for me to get caught up into the rhythmic energy of a piece, right? Like
that was already that was my strength. I was already kind of gravitating toward that and it helped me it helped me with
with phrasing. Um but uh was I had did
that did that allow me to have the most attention to detail? Make sure every note was just just perfect. No, not so
much. So, you know, uh the performance was probably always
uh better than whatever whatever if you walked away from from my performance, you might have enjoyed it,
but you wouldn't really have the crystal clear idea about what the composer wanted. I hear you. I want to get real
super clarinet nerdy before we run out of time. I've already heard you talk about this, so I just kind of want you to say things I've already heard. What
differences do you feel are important? Let's take out the Albert system clarinet. Let's say somebody wants to play in a jazz style or jazz music
itself on a on a babe system clarinet. What sort of mouthpiece considerations have you found to be mouthpiece read
combinations that would be a good starting point, a good or a good set of things to think about for somebody that
wants to get into something like that? You know, this is the struggle that musicians, especially coming from classical backgrounds, have they
actually they they don't it's it's um it takes them out of their comfort zone to
make these other sounds. And I think the combination that works best is pretty uncomfortable for people because it's
it's not because you're you're you're constantly having to adjust and control and they're not used to that. So in in
most of these ethnic music, including Malone's music, your pitch center is considerably lower
than when you're playing with a nice rich classical sound. And when that
pitch center drops, yeah, you're going to lose some of the richness in terms of the overtones,
but that's also going to permit you to use some of the vocal things that are in
these styles of music because there a lot of them are coming from voice. So, you're going to you're it's going to
give you you can't be at the top of your pitch center and have any room for vibrto. Pitch center has to come down.
um to have the to have the the the the kind of guttural uh feeling of of of of
blues or these other types of modal musics, you have to drop the pitch center so you have this flexibility. Um
let's say some music with microones and I consider blues microonal really in a way. You're not going to achieve that
here. It's all going to be achieved achieved here. So, I think that's what happens. And partially that's going to
be facilitated by a more open mouthpiece and possibly a slightly softer um read.
In some cases, an extremely softer read. Um and you're going to lose you're going to lose some things. You're going to
lose you're going to lose uh the upper register is going to start to be more uncomfortable.
Um you're going to lose what you might consider richness in the lower register, right? But,
uh, hey, you're going to lose the ability to control pitch, but because you're
actually not trying to control p you're trying to control pitch by controlling how, you know, how you adjust it, but
you're not just you're not going to be able to blow the clarinet anymore and have it match, you know, have it make a
happy face on your tuning.
[Music]
[Music] Heat. Heat.
[Music] Happy. [Music]
[Music]
[Music]
Hey. Hey. [Music]
I want to ask you a question I haven't actually heard you respond to before. So, what I'm trying to play in the style
of of, you know, like New Orleans jazz, is it would it be correct to make this
assessment because this is this is how I feel. I want I want you to tell me if I'm if I'm on the right track here in order for me to make that sound. I
fundamentally can't do it exactly right on my equipment because my pitch is actually gonna be so low that the
equipment that I play on a millimeter pulled out is never going to actually I'm going to actually be playing out of
tune in order to achieve that sound. That's exactly that's exactly the problem that a lot of people like, oh, I
don't want to do that. You know, they they struggle so much to get their instrument just right so that when they're at the top of their pitch
center, it's pretty much spot on. But to have the dynamic ceiling that a lot of these musics have um and to actually
have to you know move faster air than outer basically uh you know the horn has
to be set up sharp so that you can kind of blow it flat. Right. Right. And then meet somewhere in the middle and that's
not comfortable for a lot of people. I mean some people can do can do both. I can't I can't really do both. So if I'm
actually trying to play with a classical sound yeah I'm 20 cents sharp. I mean, we're talking about a very specific kind
of playing, right? Whereas somebody that's playing like Camplowski, you know, BF Franco, Daniel, Ron Odrich,
they're playing with a much more classical approach to the instrument. Yeah, those players are good examples of
that where they they they want facility and so they're actually have the horn set up much more closed mouthpiece um so
that they can so they can do that. Right. Well, and then they're they're generally not I mean, you know, I I've
heard your uh and participated in one of uh a presentation on New Orleans
clarinet and one of the things that that that you talked about really was the sound came from the conditions by which
people were playing the clarinet in New Orleans, you know, whether it be parades or multiple gigs or trying to be able to play all day if they had work all day
and they had to find a way to fit their sound into the situation that they were in. And uh you know there's a lot of
jazz clarinet playing that that's no longer true. If you're if you're playing into a microphone there is no need to play like that, right? A lot of a lot of
the conditions by which that sound came to be what it was aren't aren't in place in a lot of situations, right? So, it's
that that's also something like when I remember when I was I can't remember whether you tricked me or whether I I
willingly did it. But when I was it was at uh Jazz Lincoln Center and you were doing a presentation about it and you
were trying to turn me into a New Orleans jazz cler. But I but I was I had never heard you say those things and I
was like my god that makes so much sense. I never thought of that before but man. Yeah. No, that makes perfect
sense. Like meaning I g I gave you I gave you a shorter barrel. Yeah. And I made you I made you drop. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, but the whole idea that the genesis of this sound wasn't because they said, "Hey, that's the sound we
want to make." Maybe that was part of it, but it was also kind of self-defense
almost in a certain way. Like this this came from a certain a certain set of factors and that this was the tradition
from that. And I think that it's easy to forget that a lot of times that's where traditions come from. pretty pragmatic
choices really more than more than aesthetic. And then for other ethnic types of music, it's because we want to
sound like, oh, it's because they didn't have clarinets, right? It was coming from another type of instrument. So in
in Turkish music, it might be coming from the Zerna or in, you know, or in even in New Or's music, it might be
coming more from violin. And then there's other music where it's no, we're actually trying to come from, you know, from from a singer. So it's, yeah, it's
all it's all so there's that. So it's it's it's only an aesthetic choice in the sense that we're just not trying to
play the clarinet. We're trying to do something. We're trying to make some other sounds using a
clarinet. And then there's some choices that are more pragmatic because of the actual conditions, right? But envir
environmental or
[Music]
Heat. Heat.
[Music] Heat. Heat.
[Music]
[Music]
[Music] Well, that that reminds me of two things that we've been talking about, right? which is, you know, being able to hear
what it is that we're trying to play, but also using our voicing our act, you
know, actually like the back of our oral cavity, using that apparatus to actually
influence the sound because it's not I mean, the read has to vibrate. I mean, that the the what makes the sound is
what makes the sound and that is the read vibrating. It has to vibrate evenly. These things are all true no matter what style of clinetry you're
playing, right? you know, and so there's only so much flexibility we have with
our actual mouth that's touching the clarinet, right? We can't be changing that too much. Yeah, a little bit, but
not not like that. Otherwise, there also has to be a point where you're able to kind of hear what's might what might be
happening. And you gave a couple good examples. Uh um so Buddy DeFranco is a good example, but if you go back and
listen to that album he did with Art Tatum, you kind of have to get an idea about, you know, well, how's he setting
up his how's he setting up his clarinet to do that. Um Arty Shaw, his later recordings from the early 50s, you know,
he's actually playing very close to the microphone and he's playing with very slow air, right? And so that has a
different sound than say Arty Shaw in the 30s. And you kind of have to know how they're doing that. And when it
comes to recording technology, you kind of also have to know, you also have to know how microphones work. You have to know. So when I did the Jitterbug walls
and there I'm pretty sure that there was it was only possible because they did stick a microphone on me. I said, "Well,
I may as well use it." Right. Right. Right. Um uh uh you know, Eddie, what
was the album he came out with when we were in college? Breakthrough. His first JRP thing. Right. Okay. But his
evolution on JRP changes, right? He's, you know, by the end of it, he's playing some really, real jazz clarinet, but at
the beginning, you know, he's, I think he, I he was obligated to do that record on this Yamaha
and, you know, plays the gra, but but well, I just mean, it was a different it
just was a different sound, right? I mean it was it was um I don't think it was even necessarily his his sound but
you know he you you actually have to be mindful about okay what is the evolution of the so the exposition of the theme bo
theme and then when he goes into the solo section what is he you know what's what's happening physically what's he
actually doing right where where where does the sound kind of make this departure
well I've actually worked really hard on that transcription And and what's what's what's interesting
to me is I'm not proposing that I sound just like Eddie Daniels when I play the jazz part
of it, but the jazz part of it is in some way significantly easier than playing that tune at that tempo, which
is really hard. Yeah. Yeah. The try it on try it on Albert system.
But the the Bach part of that throws me for a loop more than the solo part of it throws me for a loop. For sure. Uh but
which was surprising because the the the transcription is he's playing some real serious stuff there. Yeah. Again um all
those those wide interval leaps, you know, those those uh those those spread out uh voicings which kind of simulate
uh string crossings on the string instruments, you know. Uh that was all Gary uh you know teaching us how to kind
of balance to that lower to that lower note and you know and B and then let the
airirstream kind of come on top of that where it needs to and be able to play the whole horn at all times so you can
actually go you know uh
right those wide jumps right and and the people that we hear doing that you know those all those all those cats make the
little those funny YouTube videos and stuff. Um, that Nicholas cat and people um they're really playing the piss out
of the clarinet, you know. Yeah, they're they're doing that well. That's like the thing that they do really well. And and
uh the trick is to the trick is to be able to combine that level of thought
about your airirstream and uh speed air speed as well. You
know, concentrate on those things while you're actually trying to do this other thing. That's that's that's that's a
whole another that that can be our next conversation because I'm I'm I am actually I hope you can't hear me
thinking about it. But, you know, when I'm playing, when I'm improvising, when I'm doing other when I'm doing music
definitely is far from from um Hindith and Martin and bronze and vapor. It's
very far away from that. But I'm thinking about a lot of those very same things in terms of terms of where I want
each note to be dynamically, where I want to well where where I want the dynamic to start
on a note. If I want to start the note with an articulation, without an articulation, I'm actually still thinking about very clarinety things. I
just I just do my best to disguise it. You do a good job of disguising anything that seems
That was going to sound insultful. No, I know. I know what you mean. It's
not It's not an insult. I like it. It doesn't appear to be thoughtful, right? in the sense that that like you
really don't give me the impression that you're thinking about playing the clarinet properly at all. So, good on you. Well, but but but I think that
that's the the thing that we all want to hear listening to music. We want to hear somebody playing music. We don't want to hear somebody playing an instrument,
right? We want them to transcend that thing where like, yeah, when I go hear a clarinet player, I can't not hear them
play the clarinet, right? I'm going to hear that. But I don't want to be so distracted with, man, that clarinet
playing is so good that I can't like the music isn't strong enough to like get me interested in that instead because I
don't want to go to a performance and hear somebody play the clarinet. I want to go hear them play the music on the
clarinet. Yeah. Right. And so taking that that step out is I think is
which is difficult conceptually speaking because it's not easy to play the clarinet like on that level, right? I
mean like that that takes a lot of work and to think, okay, I'm going to try and disguise the 17,000 hours I played, you
know, like I practiced to make this happen. I don't want anyone to hear that. Like I don't want anyone to pay any attention to that. Yeah, there's
something ironic about that. But listen, man, I I've I've got to run pick up my kiddo and I think you got to go to school, too. But let's let's do this
again. Sure, man. All right, man. Thank you very much. All right. Well, that was a conversation that represents something
I feel very very lucky to have in my life to be able to have friends to have conversations like that with and then
even luckier to be able to share them publicly. Uh so check out Evan. I'll leave the links in the description of
the show notes. Five star review. Please leave a comment anywhere you are. How is
it that you can apply these ideas to your planet and to your plan? I'd love to hear. Let's listen to Evan as we end
this podcast and just really review the ideas of how do we make our plane
foundationally sound to do whatever it is that we want. What kind of music do you want to play? How can you take these
ideas and make them your own? We all need to find our own voice, but our
voices come from the same central ideas.
And that is such a wonderful thing to be able to share with my friend Evan and for Evan and I to share with you. We'll
see you next time on the Fabian Podcast.
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