two. Welcome to the clarinet ninja podcast.
My name is Jay Hassler. As always, I'm doing my best to bring you the finest in clarinet education and entertainment.
Plan is in today as he often does as Mr. James Dander. If you like what you hear,
check out James' website. I'll leave it in the show notes. I'll leave it in the links. Fantastic. You won't be sorry you
did. Today on the podcast, we're talking about something very, very stressful,
and that is taking auditions and specifically taking orchestral auditions and using the orchestral literature to
be measured to see if you're going to get a job to see where you fit in in your high school or college orchestra,
oftentimes as entrance audition pieces. I've got good news. Someone I know quite well has written a couple of books that
deal with the excerpts that we tend to play that are most likely to be asked and how to conceive of them, things to
think about musically, things to think about on the clarinet, and some incredible practice ideas for exactly
those things. And his name is Dr. Ben Baron, and he is joining me today. We're going to talk about a lot of things,
general clarinet, but uh mostly about audition material, audition preparation,
and how to find your very very best playing uh when it comes to that moment you're sitting on stage or in the
audition room and you're on. How do you get your best plane there? I got a
question for you. What excerpt is most stressful for you? Or which one's your
most favorite? What about the process freaks you out or charges you up? While
you're thinking about that, leave a comment. If you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment, like, subscribe, do all of that. If you're listening in podcast
world, would you subscribe? Maybe rate us. Five stars would be nice because
that would really, really help accomplish my goal of getting this out to as many people as can possibly hear
it. Last thing, if you're an adult clarinet player and you want to learn the clarinet at a faster rate with a
higher rate of success, check out the clarinet ninja dojo. It is there for
you. Check out my free refresher course online if you'd like. All sorts of stuff
for you. I would love to hear you play the clarinet. I would love to see you in the dojo. With all that said, with no
further ado, Mr. Ben Baron. So, tell us all about this book. Uh this book is a
it's a method book to help someone prepare for an orchestra audition. It's a it's a very direct uh thesis statement
I suppose. Um it's not I mean it helps with playing in an orchestra absolutely. It teaches the you know the broader um
aspects of of the job are are touched upon but the real um impetus behind the
book is to kind of preemptively answer all the questions um we all have walking
into auditions and what's going to work and what's the right interpretation and how do I build these excerpts to um the
place of resiliency that they can withstand the audition process and all of that. For me, when I think about
taking an audition, like I think about two things. How is it that I'm going to play this excerpt? What's my ideal goal?
And then how do I achieve that on call in a stressful situation, right? What's my road map? Because if you don't have a
clear road map, you don't have much at all when you're sitting on stage by yourself. And that's that's always a frustrating situation,
right? And and when I look at this book, well, I mean, I I want to get more deeply into it, but you give really
wonderful insight into the excerpt, what's going on, what you should listen for, what you should think about, what comes before it, what comes after, why
you should listen to it, why you should know the piece, but specific phrasing ideas, but also ways to practice the
excerpts to achieve the desired goal. It's extraordinary in in these books. It
doesn't just say, "Hey, here's how it should sound." It's here's how you can get it there. You know, here here's
here's one one way that that you can get it there. Oftentimes, two or three ways
that you can get there, multiple exercises. And uh it and there are other ways to get it there. You know, the the idea being
this is one way. When you were first telling me about the book, however many years ago this was, I
my one of my thoughts was super niche, but when I look at it, it's not that. I
mean, it obviously at its core in its in its primary purpose, that's kind of what it is. But at the same time, when I look
at it, I feel like I'm getting deep, smart, really usable insight into how to
problem solve any piece, what to think about when I'm playing any piece. That's something that I think is really hard to
put words to. Like going through your books, like you've kind of reinvented a lot of ways to communicate things in
written music. Well, I'd be interesting interested to know what specifically you're referencing. Well, I mean, there's there's certain
notes that that had like in jazz what would be like a do after it, which which was talking about uh a way of ending
like not ending a phrase, but putting a break in that's not really a breath mark, but it is some sort of
demarcation. Yeah. It's lifted. Yeah. And trying to come up with ways of communicating the
musical gestures through a non-traditional marking. Um, and some of these markings were were were what Mark
would use when teaching, kind of his own little um, you know, devices to to
communicate. And others were generated just out of, huh, we can't come up with a way to to notate this. What would be
um, what what other means do we have to communicate what we're trying to um, convey, so to speak. And to your
earliest point, it it's kind of strikes me. Um, I mean, I use these books when I take an audition. I you know it's it's
it's which is a funny um thing to do. And uh also um the I do notice as time
has gone on and especially since volume two that whether it's in my own playing or my own practice or the teaching I'm
doing I find myself applying a concept from one excerpt to a solo piece or
something completely unrelated. I'll find myself running to the shelf to grab the book to show a student like, "Hey, I
want you to do this. There's a reference point here in the book that you can use to kind of model the concept and apply
it to what you're playing. Well, in one of the things that that I thought was really nice in Brahms 3, one
of the actually is on both the first and second uh movements Mhm.
there there's a a suggestion to play it on the clarinet that it's not written for. Right.
And and I which I knew which I I've done on the first movement, but I've never actually written it out before.
Right. But man, it's it's it's much more calming to actually see it written out than to try and write than to try and
like Right. No matter how many times you practice it, you're on stage or in that situation, you're not playing the note
you're seeing. And Right. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um the the first movement doesn't they they don't
transcribe. No one writes it out and you just do it on site and now you have a
have a part to actually Well, I mean, because of the pandemic, I've gotten really good with Cellius. Prior to the pandemic, I I was terrible.
I I I actually I never used it before. So I could write it out now, which I which I mean other than by hand, which
would be really weird to write it out by hand and take it anyway. Uh but but then the second movement playing that on a
clarinet and moving into the E flat, it's a really interesting idea because for me D is is really a high note on on
on the fourth line and it is hard to get that A to D interval exactly right all
the time and consistently. Yeah. Yeah. and and uh and I'd never thought about playing it on uh on a clinet.
That's a great idea. I've never thought of that, you know, and and and so it's nice to it's nice to open a book and and
have an idea that I've never had before and think, my god, nice one. Right.
Yeah. So So I I really appreciated that. It was it was a nice thing to have that thought because tell me I h I have
oftentimes messed around with playing like for
example playing the first movement of Beethoven 6 on E flat clarinet obviously
not for an audition but in terms of practicing because then that high D is
nothing right it's it's I mean because I'm not I'm not playing the same fingerings I'm playing the same actual notes so it's transposed
okay so that D on on the E flat clarinet, whatever note that is, is not a
challenge. And it's interesting to practice something when you take the challenge out, right? And and then you get it in your ear as
not having that challenge and then you play on the B flat clarinet and just for a minute it's not that it's not the same
challenge. It all comes back in your experience, the book, and and just in
general, like how do you feel about that? Do you feel like when you're working on a particular challenge and in
excerpts we come up against the same 25 challenges over and over and over and
over again often times I feel like I'm stuck in a version of myself of when I
first encountered that challenge and it's hard for me to break away from that
very antiquated version of myself for sure and and actually find my best plane because this challenge has been
something that has dogged me for so long. It's It's in my head and I have a hard time getting out of that. And I And
I I'm kind of realizing I I didn't really send you a list of questions before we talked, but I'm curious to
know if if you could fix this for me. That's a that's a tricky one. I mean, I think I think there's a real truth to
the fact that we spend our lives undoing some of the early years of playing, whether that's um the very beginning
parts of getting over the break into the altisimo and what we kind of do to force that sound and then over time learn how
to allow that sound to come out. And I think it's the same with the excerpts, the scarzo, the beethoven 6, the
beethoven 8. we get kind of locked into um those early years and uh and and what
we did in the initial learning process. And I think switching D flat, that's a really great idea. I haven't I haven't
come across that one before. Um I'll switch the clarinets A to B flat sometimes. Sometimes playing the excerpt
in a different key can free things up a little bit, right? But um yeah, I think
I think that's a great point and looking for the creative solutions which which this book does to a certain extent. But
there again, I think the idea of the book leading to more ideas to more
problem solving is um is one of the the benefits I guess I didn't see up front
when we started this project. Well, I think so many like when I consider a project of this scope because
this is sign this is significant. I mean, do you know off the top of your head how many excerpts you cover in this?
I think between the two volumes were maybe 20 to 25 pieces and probably 45 to 60
excerpts, right? I'm not I haven't I I don't have that yet. my finger. I I like I I feel like it would be
almost impossible to embark on that journey and to know you I I obviously
you had end goal, but there's going to be lots of lots of tangents and and uh roots that you you don't know are coming
along the way. Oh, for sure. I mean, volume one was just was just kind of like we just kind of worked our way towards the format and
the content. Um there was an an intense amount of work put into it. I mean Mark's dedication to the series and you
know he was my thesis adviser so to speak and and the thesis adviser has a certain amount of hours that there to
commit to the project and I mean Mark committed 100 hours to the project I don't even know what the you know
exponential over the requirement was um but it was I mean and it took eight
years it was nine years until publication I think seven uh to finish the thesis which you know for the
doctorate it took that Oh, it took a long time. I mean, it wasn't constant work. I mean, I think you're referencing a particular
spring in my life where Ran High School of Music told me I had to finish my thesis by by the end of the year. Um,
took they they said my time was up. And uh, the other slightly funny and um,
needling aspect of that too is it took me so long to complete the doctorate that in the meantime they uh, they uh,
released their uh, dissertation requirement. And this was told to me in the fall. I think it was 2000 probably
2011. And I think I finished it in spring of 2012. And I and I was told
that like you don't actually have to do this, but if you are going to do it, it's it's it's now. And so I put the
clarinet away as much as I ever have and just got to finalizing the book. I mean, a lot of the ideas were on recordings or
on sketches, but then actually putting it into something that could qualify as a dissertation and eventually be
published was um was very consuming over a 3 or four month span. Well, yeah, that
must have been the time because it was I mean it was almost one of those things where I would think to myself, huh,
maybe I should check in with Ben. He hasn't asked me to sub for him tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, "Oh, yeah. Thank you. I forgot tomorrow." Yeah.
That weekend got away from me. Yeah. It's probably the least amount of practicing I've ever done in a three or
four month stretch. No, that that was intense. And that checks out in terms of what what year it was. Now, in terms of the second book,
did you worked with Mark on that one as well? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that was that that was not a part of
your dissertation. That was just No. Yeah. Yeah. No, this was this this became a a bigger
um project than just the dissertation. And you know, we had always planned on doing a volume two. And you know, in the
meantime, Mark moved to Houston, which made getting together a little more challenging. We we had all these
thoughts of doing it. We'll do some here, we'll do some there. Go down for a weekend. I mean, not that you can knock this out in a weekend. And uh when the I
mean this went on for years. Oh, we should do volume two. We should do volume two cuz the volume one came out in 2014. And uh there just was no time
to do it. And then you know the pandemic hits and all of a sudden both of us are doing our teaching online and kind of
strikes me that wait a minute if I'm teaching online we can probably get together and play excerpts for each other and write this volume. And
selfishly, it was a way for me to um stay connected to playing through that
time, have a standard to I mean, and my students, you know, I got great students
at Montlair State and, you know, I need to show up for them, but it's it's nothing like, you know, a professional orchestra job. and having that, you
know, Mark and I met once, twice a week, you know, sometimes a couple weeks would go by and and um I mean, it was it was
great uh to get to be with him and spend that time during such a difficult
stretch. And it was also great for my playing. When I look at these books and like like I'm able to look at them and recognize,
man, this is really really great stuff. I'm able to disassociate the fact that I know you and be able to look at it and
say, this is something great. Because when I look when I think about books about like um you know some of the Benad
books had some idea of here are the excerpts and some
small markings on how to play them like the Peter Hancock book had some good ideas about how to play the E flaret
you know you know even like the Leon Rushnoff books that aren't in print anymore had some really good specific ideas you know like okay you're playing
this phrase it ends on a C third space the next phrase
two and a half measures of rest later also starts on a C. Yeah, that has to be the same. It's got to be
like in pitch and potentially at times in volume or it has to be intent whatever difference there's going to be.
It has to be very intentional quality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, all of that and uh that's u
something that is very clearly outlined in your book and like and I love that there's the sort of practice part and
there's an audition part. There's and and then there's the actual like reprint of the of the real part. there's ways to
look at it and experience it differently. And also, I think it gives
the the person looking at it an opportunity to transform themselves so that they're able to see all the good
ideas that you're talking about in a part that doesn't actually have those laid out as as kindly as you do. I'm
curious to know what what ex was there an excerpt that that you found things that you'd never thought about before or
which which excerpt when you got done examining it and working with it did you feel like oh my god I got a lot out of
that man that that's a very good question I think mendlesson scared um I really love that one uh the detail of the exercises
and what's funny too is like I'll teach that to my students now and I'll be like I had to do all this by ear you have
this written out for you I mean Mark would just tell me to displace the eighth note by one beat and have the metronome tick. But we've written it out
for you. That's really genius because it really it it changes where the accent is, which changes your experience of playing it,
which differentiates this enough to actually have a different experience. Let me tell you what annoyed me about
reading your book is that I saw that and I thought, I do that with so many other pieces. Why
did I never do it with that one? Yeah. Well, even when you said the E flat clarinet on Beetho, I was like, why
haven't I done that? Well, but but like I you know like like as much as I'm I'm really happy to have a new idea, I'm
like that's not a new idea. I just wasn't creative enough to actually do that and that's irritating.
Well, yeah. But, you know, live and learn. Like that idea. It was one of the ones that I was like, "Oh, this is not just a
book about playing excerpts and playing them well and being able to reproduce your finest playing. This is in some
way. It's not I know it's a it's the second or third thing one could get from it, but it's it's a treatise on how to
practice a a lot of a lot of ways. It's which is fantastic. I can't remember off
the top of my head like how you suggested practicing the pentatonic scales in Daphnness. Did you have any
any hints for us on that? Well, Daphnness was I mean that that is it just takes up so many pages and like
the proofreading um trauma from that still still uh echoes within me. Um,
there are, you know, I we've we've broken I'd have to grab my book, too, Jay. I haven't looked at the Daphnness
excerpt in a while. Um, have So, listen. I will only either this will all be cut
out or I'll put the parts for you. Sound like a genius. Don't worry about it. No, you can. That's fine.
Um, I mean, the the the opening of Daffin gets a thorough treatment. Um,
there's multiple practice breakdowns of the rhythm. I don't know if we did something specific with the pentatonic aspect, though. That's what I'm what I'm
not I Okay, I don't know if we actually wrote those scales out with that in mind. Another good idea.
When I was looking through all those, I mean, I stopped. My last audition was in 2019.
Okay. And I knew it was my last audition when I took it. Okay. You know, having a kid, I I just like, you know, I can't.
It's a lot. Yeah. I mean, anyone that's taken a professional audition knows how much it takes from you in the process and and
how there's some way in which the closer and closer and closer, at least for me, that I get to the actual audition date,
the more I just feel like there's metal on metal grinding inside my emotions and
it just kind of hurts. And then to take the audition, it is it's always a bizarre experience.
And I was like, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. Like like this isn't this isn't for me. And you know, I came
really close in a number of auditions, but also I was only taking auditions that would
be a real upgrade in my life that I would ask my family to move forward, which takes a lot of auditions out of the
Absolutely. out of the equation. Yeah. To a place where where certain jobs just are no longer valuable.
Yeah. Right. I I can't ask everyone to go move to some place where I would also have to work at Starbucks in order to
sustain. So that's just the reality of the situation and and particularly now I've got a really good job that it would
it would take a very very good orchestra to balance the pay out and and and I'm
happy you know and so like which it's weird to think it's weird to think about that in the context of freelancing to
take an audition like yeah I'm actually happy what I'm doing. I agree that like the the thing that is tough uh and I
want you to talk a little bit more about it. Like students really need to understand that this book is a starting
place to teach you things cuz all all of these things are things you should almost be able to just come up with on
your own to solve your own problems because any teacher student relationship is if it's a good one, it's the teacher
making themselves not needed, right? So the student has all that information and and and can can
do it like they should be able to predict what the teacher's going to say and and they should be able to do those things and that's sort of the mindset
that that it should go. When I ask a student, you know, like what does Ben Marcato mean? And they say, "I don't
know." And and I say, "Well, you know, you have a device in your pocket. It would take you literally 10 seconds to
figure this out." saw my dictionary of musical terms downstairs if anyone
but but like when when we were kids that's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. You had to look it up. Yeah. Yeah. Not anymore. Like but I still
don't think that actually helps people know stuff. No. It's the same roadblocks. I mean even with this book it's amazing. I'll
students come in with something prepared and I'll be like I'll tell them something that's in the book and they'll look at me like they they've never heard
it before. It's like did you read the text? And it's amazing how many like I mean I guess it's the same mentality is
like you get a new video game you don't sit there and read the instructions you go in and play so people see the music and the musical examples they kind of
fly right towards it but people that have used the book for extended periods of time still don't
see it all. It is interesting to think about like how to motivate somebody to dig in on
that level. I remember being so hungry for that if somebody would have handed me something like this,
right? I would have glowed in my hands, I would have been such a a magical treat. Talk to me a little bit about I mean, we
played together a few months ago. Yeah. I can't remember. What mouthpiece and read are you playing on right now?
Um, I currently play on uh I've been playing for the last little bit on a Jim
Caner mouthpiece. It is an HS facing on his E2 blank with his um CHR material.
Um so he has about eight facings, two materials and two blanks. So I've spent
a lot of time kind of whittling my way towards that. Now is is is that is that one of his old
mouthpieces or one of the new Shedville mouthpieces that has his name? It's not one. So So he has the the
Shedville mouthpieces I don't know anything about. They're being marketed and the the he has his old facing system
which I think are is ABD. He he he has three different options maybe an A+ as
well or an AA maybe. And then he has a newer line that has four facings that he
he believes are are stronger facings and that the folks preferring the older
facings are are people that played his mouthpieces before the new facings existed. And I found some truth to that.
But maybe not across the So I mean ju just to fill in you know who Jim Caner is. Uh Jim Caner is a very
uh famous in the studio world clan player from Los Angeles that for many many years was the the number one call
studio player in Los Angeles. He played in the Hollywood Bowl orchestra. Everybody has heard Jim Caner play.
Right. He because you don't know it but you've heard him play but he's Yeah. And and he was was famous for
making mouthpieces. Yeah. But famous in a in a way that I love somebody being famous, right? Which is famous. Yeah. Yeah. He Yeah, he's
famous. Like if you can get a Jim Caner mouthpiece. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. When I when I went to study with David Shiffron, I mean, oh
yes, caner mouthpiece. I would like go on eBay and try to find a Caner mouthpiece. Yeah. But but yeah, you literally
couldn't get one. And there was times when he stopped he would just not make any. Well, I mean, uh, I don't know if
this is fortunate or not, but apparently the what he told me was he he, you know, he was an avid golfer and he he got a he
got an injury and, you know, he's he's um he wasn't able to continue playing golf, so might as well scrape some rubber again. Thank lucky for us.
I I saw him in Ireland at the Clarinet Convention. I I didn't I didn't make any
any any direct contact with him just because, you know, back when I was in LA, like he
was he was he he struck me as a terrifying figure. Like I I've never spoken to him and and he has done nothing to terrify me.
But people spoke of him as if his name was always in all capitals and he was, you know, he was just the king.
Sure. And and so like I didn't I I was always afraid of him in in a way that was out
of respect. Not not because he did anything wrong. He's probably the nicest person in the world. But but the mouth
the mouthpieces were definitely lore at that point because some people had them,
but you couldn't just like say, "Hey, Jim, can you make me a mouthpiece?" Because the answer oftentimes wasn't yes. Yeah.
At the time, this will tell you about it. For me, like I haven't played one of those mouthpieces since 1994.
But I still remember the magical sort of balance in the mouthpiece and the amount
of the like it had the perfect amount of resistance that was both cooperative and
comfortable that you could push that wouldn't spread and like it was, you know, it was one of those things where
like if if every day could feel like that three and a half minutes that I played that caner mouthpiece, I'd have no
problems in my life except for this broken foot. Yeah. Until five minutes later when you
know, oh, that's fixed now. I noticed this. Yeah. And talking about mouthpieces, here's I I would love to get your idea about
this, which again, I probably should have given you a list of things I was going to ask you, but I didn't even think of any of these things. How is it
that you deal with that sort of very very sort of traditional clarinet problem? You get a mouthpiece and you
think all my problems are solved and then a week later you've got all the same problems back and you're playing a
new mouthpiece. What what what how do you navigate that? Well, it's just experience. you just get
you just get kind of beaten into submission. Uh you know, I take I'll like I have students I'll bring them like I'll be like, "Oh, they want a new
mouthpiece." I'll bring them all these mouthpieces that I have. So go through them and see what they like. And and I'll ask them, "Why do you think I have
this many mouthpieces?" And it's amazing how no one gives me the correct answer. Like they think I'm altruistic or
something like, "I bought these mouthpieces so my students would have a variety to try." I'm like, "No, I have played every single one of these
mouthpieces. They were all purchased for me to play and I just kept on thinking I
were finding something or Right. And every single one of them was the answer when you right I mean like
like I've got the same thing. I've got mouthpieces everywhere. I mean for me it just goes to the nature of of the the whole bigger picture of
what we do. There is no end. Um you think you've figured something out, you sound better than you ever have. 2 days
later you want to sound better. And I think that I think that this overwhelms a lot of folks and it's an overwhelming
thought to think like I can never complete this task. But I also um think for myself and for those of us that
stick with it for all these decades is that is is the is that that becomes
what's the best thing about it. And the first time that was that idea was ever given to me was at the Verbier Festival
in Switzerland uh from uh Mr. Ricardo Morales who I'm unceremoniously
following in your series. And uh thank you Jay. And uh but I I I can remember
him talking about this at these master classes and and that that being and and and him at the time I mean he was he was
obviously still very young. uh was probably 2002 and his thirst to be getting better and to work and practice
which I I did listen to part one. I don't think part two is out yet and uh you know it gets discussed as this just
feverish desire to improve and to discover and explore and the curiosity
that's there. So I think when it comes to the mouthpieces it's just the same thing. It's like oh this is so great. This is so great. And then a week later
you're kind of on to chipping away at a at another aspect of your playing. It's
always fascinating to me, and I'd love to hear your input on this, like to to try and if I'm trying to change my
sound, that's going to impact my articulation, that's going to impact my pitch, that's going to impact that like
there's no way to change one of these equations without changing another one. You know, when I'm working with with
adults who are just learning how to play the clarinet, like, okay, we can get a good sound. we get to the point where okay,
you know, adults I feel like can make a pretty good sound on a lot of registers on, you know, a lot of notes in a couple
different registers pretty quickly. But then when you add the idea of tonging and
all of a sudden if that doesn't align with how they're already playing, a whole bunch of new challenges come in.
And how do you align the articulation and tonging with the tone and make those
make those match up? And when I when I when I help people with that and I watch them sort of try and figure that out, I
think, okay, I've got that same thing, it just doesn't reveal itself as
obviously, right? It's it's not it's not the same problem in terms of scope, but it is the same problem in terms of
what's underneath it, right? Which is in a vacuum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, every everything if one thing changes, then everything
changes a little bit. And and it's very interesting to be at a point where
you're trying to refine something and change it just a little bit. Oh yeah. Just just just
just the smallest amount. Change. It's more that you're you're getting closer to the sound in your head
to the to the ideal that you've been striving for whether you realized it or not. When I'm working with students and I'm
evaluating myself, I'll put myself right in here. Like I have a hard time really
hearing what it is that I'm doing. Even if I record myself, which is a huge help. Yeah.
Unless I unless I wait multiple days. You have to wait. Yeah. If you wait, it helps. It helps a lot to wait.
But but because it has You don't always have that that luxury. Sure. It does need to be that I don't
know it's me playing, right? Because if I can remember it's me and what I meant to do. Detachment. Yeah.
Yeah. If I if I hear myself, I know what I meant to do and I will hear that rather than what actually happened,
what actually came out. thinking about Jim Caner and and everybody who plays an instrument in Los Angeles in the
studios, how quickly you get that feedback loop because you play, okay, let's listen to the playback and then
you hear yourself playing the headphones in that in that scenario. We're playing into a microphone and then we hear it in
our ears, which is much different than how we normally hear a clarinet when we're behind it. sound. My my teacher when I
studied in Europe, the great Eddie Vantoa, he used to implore me to listen to my sound in the hall while I played
rather than the sound from behind the clarinet or right in front of me. And I couldn't do it at the time. I mean, it
was like a level of detachment that felt like I was almost out of control. And 20 years later, wrestling with this
concept, it kind of is has sunk in and this ability to listen with a little bit more attachment. And I think, you know,
when you talk about like, you know, a couple points to reference back to when you talk about the challenges of the audition and and the process and the
psychology behind it and as you approach that day, the day of the audition, the hour in the practice room or in the
warm-up room right before you go on stage and those impacts um and along these lines, I mean, it's almost as
though they have to be addressed separately um through studies in uh peak
performance or, you know, doing things away from the instrument um
to kind of prepare yourself for what what it is you're actually trying to do.
I got as a message when I went to Manhattan School of Music was it was from a specific person, won't mention
them, not a clarinet player, so don't even guess. Did you do the orchestral performance degree?
I I didn't do that track. No, I did uh I Yeah, I mean I I did I did their stuff.
I I mean I went my Mark had me coming to the stuff that was earmarked for OP, but yeah, that wasn't
one of the messages we got was you have to want this more than anybody else wants it.
That's impossible. Well, not only is it impossible, I think it actually puts a lot of stress on a
person. Yeah. The best playing that I can do is when I only care because it matters
to me, not that it matters to anyone else. Like if I'm like, "Hey, check this out."
And then I play and don't care if I make a mistake. Yeah. My best plan will come out. If I'm
thinking to myself, "This matters more than this moment matters to me more than any other moment." And this is the like like God talk about getting in your own
way. Oh, I mean, I heard this great definition for for nervousness or like performance anxiety recently. It's like
it's like there's a wall between you and a task you know you're capable of accomplishing, but it blocks you. And I
thought that was such a clean way and like taking the emotion out of it, which
I think is crucial to see this stuff as objectively as possible, right? Very
useful metaphor. I mean, I I I think what you're referencing is is common
to the human experience. And I think that if you're not having those emotions in a setting like that or those
feelings, then maybe you're you're um you don't quite get it. or maybe you're
just, you know, you you you just are are built a little bit differently. But I I do think, you
know, Sharon Sparrow's book, I don't know if you're familiar, it's called Six Weeks to Finals. Uh she's flutist in the Detroit Symphony. His book is fairly
brilliant. Um not very long. And she she talks about uh you know, your division
of time as you prepare. And she's like, you know, most most people, you know, in
this endeavor are are pra are spending 90% of the time they're devoting to this practicing their instrument, like
instrument in their mouth, practicing, shedding. And her her point was you you
should only spend onethird of your time practicing. You should spend onethird of your time
doing mock auditions, which is playing the instrument, of course, but not not in a, you know, self, you know, um,
evaluator, you know, you're not you're not sitting there nitpicking and stopping and, you know, practicing as you go. And then one-third of your time
is on the mental preparation. And, you know, when I read this, I was like, "Wow, that that totally nails what I do.
I sit and I just practice over and over again, and I really try to just drill and prove to myself, I can play this
passage five times in a row without missing." And so now I've built the trust to be able to do it. But then you
get into the moment, you're in that cattle call room, you're you're walking out on the stage and really being able
to visualize those moments and the time it takes to really prepare yourself mentally to do that is it it was a very
eye opening uh breakdown of of my time to read. And and of course at the time I
I didn't think it was realistic, but you know 10 years after reading the book I it it resonates with me. Like if if
you're doing a mock audition, you're practicing an outcome based thing. Like I want to have this outcome. I'm going to play
this. And you're not thinking backwards of what happened, but not not outcome in terms of results. We're talking outcome in terms of what
you want to sound like, which is an important Yeah. an important Yes. That's that that's a very important distinction.
Thank you. But but but like when we're practicing, we're always kind of thinking about, oh, what just happened
rather than I mean, not not that that's all we're thinking about, but we're evaluating as we're playing. Well, that that's a loaded word, too.
evaluating I mean evaluation is a leftrain activity and creation is a
rightrain activity so if you are really creating you actually can't evaluate and if you are evaluating yourself you you
are not purely creating and I think that the I I don't think any of us can listen
to ourselves without any level of evaluation but I think that that understanding is helpful u I think so I
think that that's that's actually very concisely said I don't think I've ever said anything uh so smart in so few
Well done. That was part of the problem with auditioning was it's not the same experience as playing it over and over
or your second try or third try or fourth try when you're practicing. Those are irrelevant to the audition,
right? It's what happened on the first try. Irrelevant. When you're in that room, you're hearing someone knock, you know,
knock the crap out of the excerpt. You don't know what they're going to do on stage. You don't know if they have that follow through, but you think they do because they're not you.
Yeah. Right. Andy Ley always used to say like I I I'm gonna take a door to my audition because if I if when you hear
someone through the door they always sound really great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice little filter. That's really really hard to get away
from. I mean and the community that is mental strength like I I mean
it's it's just real mental strength to be able to withstand that. I'm a bit of a I'm a bit of a delicate
flower to be I don't think I don't think that's it. I mean, I think I think part of it is is
the educa, you know, the it's a it's a research field. Could you encapsulate like it doesn't
really necessarily have to be like the three most important things about taking an audition when it comes to preparing
the music, but what are some things that that in preparing uh these books that
you would say came back over and over and over? some ideas that we can take
away as general ideas and to and to highlight what's in the book that that are things that popped up in multiple
excerpts or ideas that would take us in our preparation that would be a through line.
Does that does that question even make sense? It does. I mean, it's always hard for me to pinpoint one thing. I mean, my kids
are always asking me, "What's my favorite this? What's what's the one thing?" It's like, I can't do it. I can't I can't I can't pick out one
thing. I mean, I think for me it's it's a lot of the phrasing cues as I just like just need to like look at a page of
the book to kind of jog forth because, you know, there's so much similarity. So, I opened up to the second movement
of Mozart, the the audition part and um
the you know, it's so hard to teach phrasing. It's so hard to and especially without interacting with a player to to
to demonstrate or to sing for them. And I think that the variety of markings
from using the the numbering system, you know, Philadelphia system of of numbering phrases from the dashed slurs
to the lift markings you referenced and accompanied by some maybe light uh
instruction verbally or or references within the text. I think I think that's what's probably hardest to communicate
through this medium. And I think I think it's it's it's kind of worked and it's
and it's working for other instrumentalists um with the violin book out. We got a couple flute books coming
soon and it seems to kind of kind of hold. One of the things that I thought was really interesting as I looked at
the music and I looked at the suggestions, I thought a lot about I hear that in recordings that I never
could actually say what it was what it was. But I heard this phrasing. This is the way that I mean like you
particularly with like the Mozar concerto there's ways in which people tend to play that, right? And there's
probably less differentiation in that than a lot of the things that we play. Although it's still at the same time
super revealing, right? It's that that's a weird Well, that's the that's the subtlety and
you you have to uh yeah, you have to be seeing it. I I was thinking of of uh one particular passage, you know, like very
close to the end of the exposition where he goes up to that high sea like four four times, I think. Three or
four times. And you studied with Wel Fuks, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember hearing him talk
about it and I remember him playing at the Denver uh clarinet uh conference and
and then I was like, "Aha, aha, there it is. There it is."
Putting it together. Ben just wrote that down. That's very nice. Which isn't to say that like you just took his ideas and wrote them down, but
I I I could make the connection of this point to that point to that point to that point and but then also have an
awakening in me of being able to see and hear and experience and talk about this music much more specifically. Uh so that
that that's the part of it that really was striking to me. I really care about teaching. I care about how I say things.
I care about all this stuff and I know you do too. And I'm not trying to say I think I'm better than everybody else, but I kind of do. And reading your book,
I was like, "This is better than me. I'm glad I know this person. I'm friends with this person. It makes it much easier for me to deal with to talk about
that jealousy thing of like I No, no, I'm not jealous. I'm I'm willing to say like I'm glad I have these books so that
I can say these things and pretend it's my idea." Really? Well, it's Well, I mean, which is great. Yeah. Own it. Absolutely. And uh
I mean that that you know I mean Mark has his own set of motivations for why he wanted to devote to to these books so
much. And you know one of them was for the teachers out there. Um all the
teachers teaching other players to take to take an audition or to learn these excerpts and how elusive it is to put
your finger on this knowledge. And um you know it's funny uh you talk about being able to convey these concepts that
are so hard to put words to. And I remember when I was becoming very serious as a young student and um
getting noticed a little bit more and being asked to come to more con concerts. What what what disarmed me
most was being asked to say something intelligent about the music I had heard and feeling as though I had the words to
do so. And in David McIll's um genius book sound in motion um he talks about
he says he says uh writing about music is like dancing about architecture
like how would I dance to show what this room is how can I write and talk about what I'm hearing and and what this the
transcendent nature of music and um yeah so it's a it's it's an elusive thing to
be able to put this into words and and that book is for me it is absolutely in the top three nonclan
pure gold every word you read everything you read is just like oh yeah I mean whether you kind of felt it or knew it
and like just to see it as his the chapter on wind playing techniques like I mean I do things that he's a
bassoonist for crying out loud and I do things written in that chapter when I played the clarinet and they worked
well I mean everything about it is is amazing I talk about it all the time but this book that Molly Gabrian wrote uh
learn faster perform better in the show notes Jay I want to read that well no listen if if listened to all my
podcasts, you you would have heard all about it. Check it out. There's there's two episodes with her and it's it's it's
it's amazing. And uh and yeah, and use and use my link. It's a it's a it's an affiliate link. I'll I'll make 35 cents.
Um and it won't cost you any extra money. I didn't know where to click. But but like Yeah. I mean like those two
books and you know and like uh song and wind I would put those three books as not clarinet specific but all super
formative in what in what I do and what I think. Molly's book, it resonated so
much with the things I already thought and I already said, right, that like I feel like I will start
talking with words from that book as if they're mine very organically,
you know, which and and there's no difference in that like taking something your teacher told you 15 years ago and now you just say it and
don't I mean I remember my teachers back then being like, "Oh, you won't remember who told you what when you're doing this." And I I didn't understand that at
the time. Isn't that the truth? And I think that there's something about that that's claret specific and life specific,
right? is that there's parts of us that are who we are as people and as musicians and it came
from somewhere and somewhere powerful. I got no idea where a lot of it came from. I can get times in my life and periods
of my life I can kind of get it down to something but I can't really quite figure it out. I know because of the
magic of social media that there's a there's there's flute books on the way. Is that are they on the way or they out
already? They are on the way. They they apparently uh I don't know. Publishing
is a an interesting business. Uh tends to move at its own pace. Um going to
print on April 23rd means the book will be physically available in June apparently. Okay.
And uh and uh but then I was I I uh for a couple reasons wanted the book uh
known right now. Um I'm rebuilding my website that should be released probably right before this podcast is out. So
check it out. Benjamin Baron.com. So that that will be in the show notes for sure. Oh, great.
What was that? There was something else. So I reached out to the publisher and I said, can we can we get the they have they
have a page on their website for all the books and uh it's kind of can you generate the pages so we can get a little buzz going about the books before
they come out to boost sales. And uh they had already done it. It was already sitting there pre-sale. So
nice. Yeah. Nice. Um, and so you you're playing bigger organizational role that I don't
really quite understand. Is that something you want to share or do you No, no, it's fine. We've been writing these flute books since 2016.
Oh, yeah. And uh and this was originally going to be one book, but uh Joshua put so much
into them that all of a sudden I got the final draft. I was like, this is two books. Like we can't put out a 200page
book. Like it's just like it's too much. And so it's great. It took it took eight
plus years, but we have two volumes now. Um my my role is is uh is uh kind of
everywhere. Um I'm I'm the primary point person with the publisher. Uh
um we have to we have to show how to write these books and these are all very
accomplished artists in their own right with their own fully formed concepts and um approaches. And basically the idea as
we branch out to a series is you use the model of the book um with with your own
content so to speak. And um you know I think early on I mean
I I can remember Mark's reaction to this when I said it. I didn't fully understand it at the time cuz he didn't
say I was wrong. But you know when we started branching out on the books like oh yeah I'll do I'll do like I did for
the I'll I'll like read everything. I'll help them. I'll I'll do all this. And Mark kind of looked at me like, you're I
don't I don't think you're being very realistic. He didn't say it, but that was a look on his face. And it's just it's just too much. And with um with
Joshua's books, um I I I feel a little badly. In in 2017, I I played um the
opera festival with American Symphony Orchestra, and I was playing I was playing the bass clarinet, and I I'm terrible remembering what pieces are
what, but the bass clarinet was very minimal in the opera, which was great. It was like a four and a half opera. my
part was in the first act. I was home from from uh from upstate New York
before the opera finished. So, that was fun to text people, you know, when I got home. They were still sitting in the pit. Uh but what this meant was if you I
I I'm sure some folks are familiar with the American Symphony and and their music director Leon Botstein, which
means you you don't know what's coming next. So, while we may have finished act one, I I can't wander too far. They
might come back. And so I spent I was sitting out in the hall listening to the a lot of these rehearsals and just
started opening up and helping helping Joshua with the editing and kind of working his texts out a little bit. And
what what has happened is there there's there is not time to do that for for all the artists, even even one of them. And
so um I've written out like a kind of a how-to guide to kind of create your own
volumes. But it's a lot. I mean we have to have the artist we have to be on a time frame. We need an engraver. Now
that I know you do Selius, maybe uh maybe we got another engraver. Yeah. Listen, I I I saw John Romeary's
name as the engraver and I was like, "Nice." Because, you know, like I'm not that
good. I I'm good enough to make my He's great. Like I can make I can make really nice things for
like for my own thing, but it's not profession. It's not professional. It's professional. It's professionalish.
Yeah. And this is a tricky engraving project. We we have had a few engravers like we send them the book, we say, "Can you do this? This is the process." and
they say yes and then it turns out either they can't or for them to do it it's just flat out too time consuming
and uh well when I when I see what's in your book and looking at it through the eyes of somebody who who makes music on
Selius I look at it and I think well well number one first let me say because no one said it these books are
incredibly well put together on high quality paper they feel nice they're a joy to just interact with physically and
that's not even getting to the content of it but the content of it is so well done. The instructions are in in a blue
that's very easy to read that references back to the text and it's all like like if you want if you're looking for if one
is looking for something that is written in the text you can easily find it in the music like like that that sort of
going through the process is very very user friendly which is really nice because these books have a lot in them
right there's there's a tremendous amount of information that's all Great.
But when you're trying to sort through it and go from the text part to actually reading the music part that you guys did
it in a way that made it so that it's very very functional. So yeah,
because that could be a disaster. Oh, for sure. And if you want it to be a disaster, I'm happy to be your engraver.
I'll do it for twice the price, but half as good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Take twice as long. Yeah.
But uh but yeah. I know. Somebody would have to be very very skilled at what they're doing to to make that layout on
the page, right? Elaborate. Um the proof reading is incessant. I I mean the to make sure
everything's coordinated, right? Page. I mean, it's it's just kind of an endless process and eventually you just have to
send the book in to be printed because you can sit and tweak and tweak um all day. Yeah. I mean, we've got a we it's a
good opportunity to give um a lot of uh credit to GIA publications both for the quality of books you're putting out. I
mean that stuff matters right opening the book and you know you can see it I mean it's deliberately 9 by13 not just
so you can't copy it easily and um and uh the other the other the other you
know thing that GIA has done is you know they they financially support us they
print the books and they send it to readers we and so for both volumes we've sent this book out to 20 prominent
people in the field and some of them you know skim say something nice, maybe write a testimonial, but we're always
sure to have like two to three people that will read every word and will like
play through every excerpt and do that. On volume two, we kind of we had so much great feedback and it seemed like some
people focus on one aspect of the book and other people in other places, but that's I mean it's it's a necessary
component to to produce something that I think the quality stands up to
scrutiny over the long period and that's
that's the system that's in place that less than the work that went into
creating it if that makes sense. Yeah, it's daunting. I think it must be. I'm
just imagining what it feels like to be like, "Okay, it's ready." I mean, it's it's so slow at the end,
Jay. Like, there are so many little steps at the end of the process that like, you know, from from making sure
the forward is ready to go to putting the glossery, all the markings in the right place that it's like by the time
it's there. But there is there there there there is still that that feeling. Yeah. We we don't find a
lot of mistakes, but it's impossible to to to dig at all of them. So, well, here's here's the other thing
I wanted to ask you. I was very aware of your recent performance of the Copen Concerto and was unable to attend and I just want
you to know that I wanted to go and I could not go. I was I was I was excited
for you that you were doing it and I I I very much wanted to go. I can't remember what I was doing, but this was in the past couple months, right?
Yeah, it was February and it was a Friday night. people people got things going on. How did it go?
Oh, it was great. It was it was really it was a really meaningful experience. Um that piece is so much and I have to I
have to be like really honest like I mean I learned it as a student and it's always a piece I wanted to revisit and
kind of feel like I had really wrapped my head around and it's just so much to do it even like through teaching it. I I
had a student last year win with it on in the concerto competition. So that was, you know, I I I teach it, but to
get right in there and play it, and I didn't perform it from memory, um, for a variety of reasons. One, the conductor
asked me not to. Uh, we didn't have a lot of rehearsal time, and it's a it's hard to put together. And, um,
it was just great to have an excuse to to to to really digest that piece of
music. It's just incredible. Um, I mean, as we all know, all clarinet players listening, but um to to have a reason to
listen to every Copeland recording out there and to um uh to get the score and
just have it as part of my existence over a stretch of time. I started I think I gave my first performance of it
like last November in a very, you know, low pressure situation and
kind of kept doing that and it uh it was a it was a really great experience. We I
did I did manage um don't tell anyone, but I did manage to get an actual video out of the dress rehearsal.
So um I'll I'll share that with you if you want to take a listen. Oh, love it. Um yeah, but I can't I can't you know
it's in while so it's like it's at Carnegie, so so it's like it's a I can't I can't widely I suppos I would I would
love to hear it cuz I I I definitely want it to be there. In your listening of recordings, did you run across the
almost mythical at this point recording of Bill Blount playing that with St. Luke's?
Yeah. Yeah. It's great, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I knew Bill a little bit back in the day. Yeah.
Talent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but by the time I knew Bill, he was had had a lot of life struggles, right? So, he wasn't
the same person that played that that recording. I mean, I always felt like Bill was
probably the best clan player that nobody's really heard of outside of New York, right? I mean, he I think he should have
been a legendary figure in our field. No, no, he was he was he was a really good uh and and I definitely felt like that
that recording of the of the Copeland, which I have on a cassette somewhere in
my house, um because because it went out of print. I think on the other side of the record, I think Dennis Godburn is playing the
Mozart bassoon concerto. I think on this record that's that's that's long since out of print. That is
unfortunate because like to me that's actually probably my favorite recording of of the Copa concerto. And it's it's
it's almost like not findable as far as I know. Uh which is weird in this day and age to
have something not findable. Yeah. To have something you can't track down. Yeah. which which which is strange, but that's also honestly like like I'm going
to keep talking about your books because this stuff that's in your books isn't
really findable anywhere else. Like this is this stuff is so good. Why
didn't we have this before, right? Like this is so good. Yeah, this should have been done before, right? And the fact that it wasn't means
a couple things. It means that it was really hard to do, right? Because if it was easy to do, it would have been done.
The only place to find this is in these books. And oh well, here's the other thing I wanted to say. I love music.
This is such an old guy talking. I love music that is printed on realsiz music paper because I can't I can't see it.
I'm old and I can't see the music when it's on 8 and 1 half by 11 paper or it's on an iPad. Like I'm like the iPad's
better, but I'm just that's when that's when I really recognize I'm not a kid anymore because you know like I think
those kids in their gosh darn iPads like have your whole library with you. I
will say that. But yeah, that is nice reading it. Yeah. Yeah. And and there are times when like I'm sitting here, I'm looking at a
screen. I have the I will put the music on the screen and practice a little further back. Right. But uh but yeah know it is nice to have
realsiz music like that. I have to say, I mean, hearing hearing this feed, I mean, these books are I I mean, I I
they're just a labor labor of love for for Mark and I. Um, they they take so much time to produce. And hearing
feedback like this from from someone such as yourself, I got feedback last
summer. One of the readers of the book, um, I don't know if people want their names mentioned, but very prominent
player was was playing Chike 6 last summer, and he said he was using the book to prepare for it. And like it just
felt so good. It was like we spent so much time on that excerpt. Ch like you asked me about like I didn't know where you were going with which excerpt
epitomizes this or epitomizes that. And chike 6 is in my head. I mean that thing took so long to finish and to examine
and to do all the excerpts in there. Um Shaharzad was similar but I don't know something about the Chaikovski that was
just a a big pill to swallow. And so hearing that feedback from people at the top of the field that are that that are
finding use out of it, it's just it it it really just means so much. I want to piggyback on that idea, but I
also before I do that, I just want to say the you know, you mentioned Shaharzad. All of a sudden it triggers
me very vividly to remember what you wrote in that book on how to play it, but then how to practice it. That was
really really that was terrific. Really terrific. And one of the things that
like I always get lost in those like like I'm always like there seems to be a weird tradition
where people just play that as fast as they can which I don't think is great which isn't what's going on. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. But then but but then the other one the with the with the two triplets
like reading why that's on a list. Right. Right. Because because like like you talked about what's going to make you
stand out when you play this. And and I think that that's one of the things that we talk about with a lot of the
excerpts. Why is this on a list, right? But then there's a lot of excerpts that
aren't so much there's a real reason why they're on the list, but then the question becomes what's going to set you
apart when you play this one, right? It's not so much that this one's the tonging one or this one's the, you know,
the counting one, right? Yeah. Like but but here's what you're going to do in order to not sound like everybody else,
right? And I think that that's something that is really important pairing a a
book of this this of this like stature this this is this is really high level stuff with a teacher and it could be you
know there's lots of teachers that can right they can do it you know to say okay
here's the idea of how you're going to stand out but then most people are still not going to do it they're still not
going to stand out they're going to think that they're going to do it and and I listen I'm not me too right where
where like I think I'm doing the thing, but then I'm not actually doing the thing. And so I have a teacher say, "Yeah, okay." So that's when you're
doing the thing. That thing you just did, that's the thing, right? To be able to have that that sort of full circle
with it. You can't learn music from a book. Well, you can't you can't learn music from a book. But but I do think that that the the
discovery process of seeing it in a book, interfacing with it on your own terms, that isn't your teacher's idea.
It's a different way of internalizing something and and having access to it. You know, when I started making YouTube
videos, it was really just for my students during the pandemic. Then I realized I like making videos. I like
the recording. I like the editing. I like all this stuff. But then the problem was the challenges. Do you have like a short comedy career
in there? Do you have like a brief stint in there? Well, that that wasn't part that wasn't part of my YouTube channel. But yeah,
but you know, yeah, I I I'm an open mic veteran. You're designed for this. Yeah. Yeah. So, the thing was then, okay, so
you're going to make a video about reads. Who's this video for? Right? Is
it for people who are just opening a read case for their very first time in their life
or is this for people that know about reads? Like who is this for? Because there's so much who's watching,
right? And and it could be anybody. Your audience is unknown. And that's the part about these books. You have an advantage
over my situation in that this is for people who are looking to take professional auditions. Well, you know, it's funny with these. I
mean, I I think they work for anyone. Uh, I mean, of course I do, right? But,
uh, for anyone taking an audition, I think if you're a high school kid auditioning for a youth orchestra, you
got to play Beethoven and and Shastikovich, like this is this is a resource. And if you're um taking a
college placement audition or I I agree, but I want I want to highlight one thing in that and that
that this is written for people taking a professional audition, which isn't to say other people can't get something
from it. And I think one of the main things you if you're talking about a high school kid or someone trying to get
into college, one of the things that really comes from this book are what things should you
think about just in general about playing the clarinet or about music, right? Because you're talking about them
in in in the way that we talk about them as professional musicians. And so to have that idea of just experiencing
somebody talking to these situations the way that we do all of a sudden that gives a point of entry, that's super
super helpful for someone that's in that position. Absolutely. I I love the idea that that while this
the target audience in essence is small, the audience that would benefit from it
is huge, which wouldn't be the case if this weren't so well done, right? This could be just for the 150 people taking
auditions at any given point in time, but it's not. It's actually It's actually for everybody. It's so good at
objective number one that it allows all sorts of other things to be relevant, all sorts of other people's experiences
to be relevant to it and can learn from it. If somebody were to never even play in an orchestra and just be interested in playing the clarinet and never play
Beethoven six, they can study it of of just that one
part and then have a completely different experience listening to the rest of the piece, listening to how these themes and ideas come back in
other instruments at other times. And so like actually just listening to Beethoven 6 becomes a much different thing because you've educated yourself
through this point of entry which is the clarinet part and specifically these excerpts. So, I mean, I think even somebody who just plays a clarinet once
a month could could really find if if they're interested in classical music a lot of
really relevant things in in in these books. I'm still stand by my idea that you you'll never find me in another audition. But that but I still will look
at these for inspiration to practice other things. It helps organize my mind,
right? Like there there's a very calming feeling when I read it and when I look at it because everything is so organized. the chaos of
Yeah, the chaos settles. All right, Ben, thank you so much for being here and uh I'm gonna leave all
the information about you, about your books in the show notes in the description so everybody can get all of
the Ben Baron they could possibly want. Oh, well, there might be a cap to that pretty early, but uh
but I appreciate this, Jay. It's really great to sit down and talk with you and um uh I appreciate all your kind words
and and how thoroughly you've looked at the books and um it's it's just great to
hear of someone, you know, of your caliber that's really benefiting from
from from what's inside of them. Well, I mean, listen, I benefit twice because I I benefit from the work that
you did and reading these books now. But let's be honest, I probably made a couple thousand dollars subbing for you
when you were writing for these books. So, I I got paid on the front end and I get the benefit on the back end. It's amazing. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've
situated well. All right, man. I'll see you next time. All right. Thanks. All right. So, there you have it. Some
incredible information from a real expert. Uh I can't tell you. I mean,
everything I said there, I was gushing about this book because it is that great. So, go ahead and check it out.
There's links for everything we talked about during this episode in the show notes in the description. Please, and if
you haven't, tell me which excerpt is your favorite. Tell me which excerpt is your least favorite. Thank you for being
here. Please tell the world. I want everyone to know about the clarinet ninja podcast if they like the clarinet.
I believe these conversations are going to be fun for everybody.
