[Music] Welcome to the clarinet ninja podcast.
My name is Jay Hassler and as always I'm doing my best to bring you the finest in clarinet education and entertainment.
Playing us in today is Mr. David Ghoul. The piece you're hearing is called New Picture. That is the title of his new
album. I'm going to leave links all over the place in the show notes in the description. However you're watching or
listening to this, you will be able to find your way to this uh this album. I
think still an album. In any case, uh and to Mr. David Gould. And you'll also be able to find your way to me. And if
you're an adult clarinet player who's looking to really refine the way that they practice, the way that they learn,
and put your trajectory into light speed, check out clarinet ninja.com and
the clarinet ninja dojo. Links for those will be quite obvious cuz I want you to find me if you are looking for me.
Before we get going, don't forget to like, subscribe, five stars, leave a nice review, make a nice comment if
you'd like. No further ado. Let's listen to the conversation with David Gould.
So glad you're here. It's great to see you, Jay. I'm glad we could put this together. Yeah, me too. Now, tell me um about this
new recording cuz you know I I feel a little bit bad because I wasn't the first to know about this recording and
I'm not even the third the first podcast you're on. But could you tell us like what tell us you know give us the
elevator pitch on this. Well, I'll tell you. I uh recorded it uh and we put it out September 1st of last
year. Uh I did a bunch of little video blurbs talking about each piece and you know the promo I wanted to do to
hopefully get to people. And of course, every day I realized people don't know about it. And I was felt horrible
putting each one out going, "Oh my god, me again. People are going to nuts." And I put one every week talking about a piece. I had a plan and all organ.
Anyway, here we go. The uh the my latest album, my second album,
uh you know, that I put together that's featuring me is for bass clarin and piano. It's called New Picture. Uh it's
music that was either written for me or arranged for me. uh by the likes of
Jimmy Heath, famous jazz composer and saxoponist. Uh Pakita de Rivera arranged
a movement of one of his works to fit the bass clarinet that I could record. Uh and then my pianist and friend and
colleague Peter Banister wrote a couple pieces. Uh and is a friend writing you
the hardest thing he possibly could, I guess. Or at least that's what it feels like. Uh so I don't know if he's really my friend anymore but foe but either way
that uh a Swiss composer Alexander Reeden uh who I had played one of his works um with a friend and he liked it
and was very kind and a month or two later in the mail I had a solo piece he
just sent to me and then you know developed and you know another composer blah blah blah uh I'm not doing a
particularly great job of this but um but what can I what can How can I explain more?
Well, well, listen. Here's here's what I want to do. You've just sort of very casually said I played a piece with a friend
and I happen to know who this friend is, right? I mean, those Flee Capair at the
Claret Associ. Yeah. So, I mean, so you're downplaying a little bit of a thing here, right? So,
okay. Well, look, I you know, I don't like named dropping. Uh, it just it but
he's a friend. I mean, look, he played clarinet at my wedding. He was my clarinet teacher. Uh he's a friend
anyway. So yes. No, no, listen. Listen, man. I I'm here to do the name dropping for you. Thank you. Okay.
I'm happy to do that. Uh can you I I didn't I'm learning stuff right and left here. I didn't know that you studied
with him. Okay. So, I'll give a quick blurb. Yeah. I I went to Giuliard and I studied
with Stanley Ducker and um and Ayako Oshima a little bit. All the while, at least for my second year on, I started
moonlighting. I started taking lessons with David Weber and he really became a dear mentor and a good friend and a and
a great teacher to me. He really explained so much. Uh when I I finished
my four years at Giuliard and I got a grant to study in France, a scholarship from a an American foundation in Paris
and um I spent a year studying with Michelle Arinon at a municipal conservatory and I ended up meeting
Philipe Coupair. And it's a long funny story, but I met him and uh I went and I
had a lesson with him and it was really great. It was really felt like what I needed. So I uh spent two years studying
with him. And just before all that, I I spent a summer studying with a guy named Jacqu Lanslo. Um in my summer between
junior and senior year, I went to France and at Weber's encouraging to get, you know, what he would call a second
opinion. And I had a lesson. He trusted Lanslo. So it was the second opinion he
knew would be good. And I had a lesson every other day for a month basically in a tiny little town in the south of France. And I practiced the clarinet
probably eight or nine hours a day with probably 20 other clarinet players. We all did the same thing. Uh I made the
festival international. Otherwise was all pretty much French people. And um we would go out to a little cafe every
night all of us and talk and laugh and drink and you know never to access.
Thank you very much. But um yeah, so that was that's my history uh essentially with those
people. So that's how I became friends with Phipe and and uh yeah. Well, so so ju just for anyone who's not
necessarily familiar with David Weber or I he's Mr. Weber most most of the time, right? He is Mr. Weber. Um so he's a
legendary player and teacher in New York City, right? But I mean really I think I don't think I'm overstating this that
like he was a like a major influence of many many many players that came through New York City and studied at Giuliard. Y
and and I don't know he may have taught him a lot of places. I don't know his history all that well. Well he I mean he started at Jiuliard
for a while and then left. That's another long story for another day. Yeah. Um but then many people would go and
have lessons here and there with him uh or play for him or you know he liked he
was a a terrific pedagogue and you know gave or or gave you something different
to think about. I mean, I'm not overstepping by saying people like uh Patrick Msino or Ricardo Morales,
Jessica Phillips uh and not to me regular students uh uh Dan Gilbert, Todd
Levy, John Manassie, Melt, you know, there was a ton of people and a lot of and a lot of different walks of life
that he touched and taught and uh he he loved teaching and gave it his all and and really I think helped all of us so
much. Well, I mean also like again I'm sort of just like going on the lore of all this. He he has connections all the
way back to Bernard, right? I mean he has connections all the way back to Bellison. Okay.
So he David Weber studied he's from was from Detroit originally. Well I mean
he's from the old country originally. He came here when he was a little boy. Anyway, ended up in Detroit. Studied
with a guy named Roy Schmidt who was a beautiful clarinet player. one or two recordings of him that exist. Uh and and
Schmidt, as I understand it, had killed himself at some point. Uh and Weber told me the story. He went to his lesson and
he couldn't go in and there was a cop and you know what's going on? I'm here for my lesson with Mr. Schmidt. And the
cop basically said, "You're not having a lesson today, kid." So the second clarinet, I believe his name was Lucone.
Kind of took him under his wing a little bit. He ended up getting a scholarship from Ose Gabriel, the famous musician.
uh and to study in New York. He came to New York, he studied Bellison, played in Bellison's famous clarinet choir that
had the likes of Operan and uh Comment Block and Leon Rushoff and I mean many
many people. So he did that for a while and then he ended up uh taking lessons
with Bernard over two different occasions. became good friends with Ralph Mlan, you know, and this is all
kind of what kind of a lot of what his schooling and what led to everything and
led to us. So, right, because and he's kind of at the center of all of it and important part of the center of all of it. I mean,
he played with Tuscanini in the NBC symphony. He played with Stikovski. He played in the New York Filmonic for a
couple seasons. He was playing clarinet in Bernstein's legendary last minute
uh stepped up to the podium which is kind of I didn't know that until uh you
know much later and then I was just blown away and you can actually find the program someone did I have it somewhere
in a text message and his name's on it anyway sorry we could go on and on this problem Jay we can go on and on
we we could and and to a certain degree we will but uh but so then also get me
straight on this, and I mean this with with love and that I have for this person that I've only actually met once.
I get the feeling that him endorsing somebody to get a second opinion for a student that he cares about is really
high praise because as far as I know, he didn't necessarily he wasn't easy to get the respect of.
Absolutely. You're you're you're saying it very nicely. He had very strong opinions and opinions based on lots of
different things, you know. Honestly, that's the truth, you know. Um, but yeah, he he became very friendly with
LSLO and they would see each other and he says go and and he had sent a bunch of other students before me to to study
with LLO and they actually went to the famous Nice Academy, you know, amazing.
Wow. Wow. Wow. I went to this tiny little town that I took, you know, two trains, a bus, a car, and maybe a mule
to get there. Uh but um but yeah, no, I mean he I think he would only do that
with people he trusted. I knew he would send some students to Aspen because he respected a guy named Dick Waller. Uh I
know he respected uh Colman Block out in LA. They knew each other. I mean he had
he had a list you know honestly but you know he he I think was probably afraid a
teacher could undo what he was trying to do or you know then there was all the the rest
you know all the you know the the dark side of educators and teachers and students where you know all the stuff
can happen or whatever meaning you know you stole my student or you know all this sorts of stuff and right
I mean uh I I feel very fortunate and actually you know when I studying in France. He when you're coming home, you
got to come home. And and we were joking around a lot about this and I said, you know, it's your fault. You sent me to France to study with LLO. So, I liked it
so much I found a way to go back with this Harriet Hail Willie scholarship that I had and was there for a year and
then I convinced someone they should study and then I realized, wow, wait, I'm not done yet. And then after two
years, you kind of get the hang of it. And then the third year and then by the end of the third year, it's like I'm
either staying forever or I should go back. and and I had a lot of pressure from him uh that oh your career's in the
states you should come back what did I know okay so I did my parents were happy
I guess that I came back too so so that's what happened I can't can't rewind or suppose how any however else
it would have gone but I was lucky to have those experiences that that did a lot to teach me and form who I am today
touching back to Philipe Capair I the first time I actually really became aware of him was at the Denver Clarinet
Association, uh, the Denver Conference, and and he stepped in kind of at the last minute and played, uh, the Mozart
Quintet, I think that's and and and that was the first time I'd heard like a real French guy playing
clarinet in person, right? Like like I'd never actually heard that before. And I I I was a little bit surprised that I'd
never heard that before. But then I actually I had a thought. I mean, I'll name drop. I was sitting next to Ricardo
Morales, you know, in the third row. I said to him, "I think I get it now."
Like that makes sense to me. Like I mean the the sound was so much different than than you know I mean Ricardo was one of
my primary teachers. So much than what he made but there's a lot of connections that are much deeper in terms of the way
notes are connected the way things are happening that that but but it was just in a in a brighter sort of you know
higher brighter in a very very good way. More colorful. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I don't I agree
with you. I don't that that's not the word I would choose, but but like but yeah, but it was it had a sweetness to it. It was a more feminine sound. When I
was talking to Ron Odrich uh about, you know, Bernard Marcellis and, you know, that type of that style of playing, you
know, he said, you know, Bob Marcellis always used to say, "This is a soprano instrument. It should sound like a soprano instrument,
right?" Well, I mean, Barlio's called the clarinet the feminine voice of the orchestra, right? I mean,
in French, it's a feminine instrument. Uh so so when when I heard him play and then and then Ricardo told me I'm just
blasting his personal life out here that during COVID he was taking Zoom lessons with Philipe which which I just love. I
was like you know here's this person that like I think you know he's an amazing he's got it figured out. Yeah. He you know but but still he's
he's he's working on getting better and that's the person he chose which which was very very telling to me that that
what I heard wasn't wrong like Well no it's true. And it's funny you
mentioned him with that in co and all. We'll go back to Mr. Weber. He studied with Bernard when he kind of got to New
York after some time with Bellison and he actually met Mlan at Bernard's place.
Uh and Mlan told him, "Oh, I'll teach you everything Bernard can tell you in two
lessons." Barbara didn't believe it. Didn't know quite what to make of it. and had
lessons with him for a while and he said he was good but it was he wasn't giving him much of
anything really you know he was he was making him do stuff and and he says finally one day I kind think he figured
out how to support with the diaphragm and he figured out something and he showed up and he said Bernad poked him
in the bell and he says ah you figured it out you know now that was the first
story fast forward maybe 15 or 20 years I don't know uh Weber. Mr. Weber is in
the prime of his career. He's working everywhere and he's doing stuff and and I think he he just felt like he had more
to learn. So he went back to Bernard and Bernard took him through all the
conservatory pieces and all sorts of music. And that's he said the second time around is when he learned a lot
from Bernad about music and about the style and about you know was may so maybe Bernad for him wasn't a great
whatever fundamentals teacher or but he was certainly became a terrific coach if you will and and right
so but yeah I mean I know you you said you wanted to talk kind of about the differences that I had witnessed between
the you know for example the French school and the American school. I mean, granted now I left France. I mean, I
keep going back and there a lot of friends and I get to hear a lot of the young players, but I left in 1999. So, I was there from I mean, full-time 96 to
99. And um I think how they get what they have. I think the focus
on on things is a little bit different. So, the focus is a little bit more on repertoire per se. And I think they also
they start very early. they learn all sorts of soulfish where here we learn everything at the same time there I
believe it's a year of soulfish class before you get an instrument in my program that you know that for
adult learners one of the things that we start out with is I'm not sure we start out with it but one of the things that
gets included in a much different place than when I learned it is it's not necessarily sight singing right but
playing easy passages and being able to take your instrument out of your mouth and sing the next note to prove to yourself that you're actually hearing
what you're about to play. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, because because that that is the most powerful thing we have.
Absolutely. I mean, and by soulfish, I mean like they're learning to read cliffs, they're reading notes, they're learning rhythms, all this sort of
stuff. Obviously, the soulfish we think singing obviously I'm sure there's a singing component, but that's one thing that I was taken by all the players
there. I mean, they they there were no real rhythmic mistakes or something because they they learned that earlier.
And I think when you're not learning that stuff and the clarinet stuff and
everything at the same time, I feel like it's becomes a little bit easier to focus. Now, I mean, they're still learning everything, too. But, um, so I
think a focus on on repertoire is very different. There's a lot of competitions. Everybody does competitions. Competition to get in,
competition to get out, competition here, competition. So, and what do you play for competitions? Well, you play different pieces of repertoire. And I
think and I think um that's a very big part of it. And I also think there's a
lot of uh you know there very uh not advanced but like very clear
phrasing. I don't want to say you know a lot of expression. It's very very obvious very um out there. Whereas I
feel like here we're we're trying to play perfect and and maybe I'm exaggerating. I'm not trying to belittle
a different our school play but you know what I I feel like the everything we want just so
from the, you know, with the bow on it, everything's straight and polished and and um and I think sometimes we realize
we think that's just the goal. The goals after that, of course. Um so I, you
know, I don't think there's one that's better or worse at all. um having seen
it and and you know a lot of the players I listen to throughout history it's a lot of European players just because
it's a different sort of thing than what we're used to. So getting this back to you and the project that you have have uh yeah
have have presented the world with I only know as much as um you know like I
I saw that you were on uh another podcast which I I quite enjoy clarinet Corner. I think it's a very wonderful I
think it's a wonderful podcast. Then I start to think, okay, so all of a sudden I'm aware of this thing and I I don't know why it I don't know why you didn't
just tell me at any point in time that this record existed. To be fair, like like social media is very weird and our
consumption of social media is weird and I may I had an opportunity to know this because it was in the world. But here's
what I want to know. Like like this is all baseline stuff and I know that you're well known as a bass clinet
player. I mean like I will I'm probably more comfortable in saying that I think you're a sought-after bass clinet
player. If somebody needs a bass clarinet player, they're they're they're looking they're looking to you. Uh and
and not just in New York. I mean, I know that you go a lot of places and play the bass clarinet. But I also know that
that's somehow or another what you are known for, but that's not exclusively what you do. And I'm curious to know
this intense clarinet playing that that you learned from these people. None of
them, as far as I know, really were known for playing the bass clarinet. No, none of them. None of them did. So,
it's funny. How did that go for you? Yeah. When I was at Giuliard and finishing up at Giuliard,
Mr. Weber said, "We should probably get you an Eflat clarinet. You should learn that because, you know, you might get work on it." Okay. Got an Efl. I played
a lot my last year. Sure. Went to France. I was there. And then when I was leaving France, I well, you know, maybe
I'll get a bass clarinet and go home. Maybe I'll work more and
so I'll have it. So I went I got a bass clarinet and um I went straight from the factory
uh the buffet factory in Mont and to straight up to Van Doran and I saw a good friend who ended up becoming a
mentor. This is before I was working for Van Doran name was Jean Paul Goofan and we were talking about sound and it was
kind of hilarious. were sitting in his office and we're passing my bass clarinet back and forth playing talking about sound and amisher and all this
sort of stuff and um he told me start with really soft reads and don't worry
about it like find the voicing find all this find your you know all this you know how we figure things out and um and
I did and I kind of liked it it was fun and I came back and had a couple gigs and a couple of opportunities playing and um you play the bass clarinet and in
a lot of cases it it can be considered a solo instrument if you know I joke around bass clarinet can be an
instrument in the orchestra or if you play louder it's a solo instrument you know and uh and you know I ended up I
was getting called for that well I had a bass and I took it somewhat seriously so I was practicing whatever so so I had
opportunities that for me went well and I have to say I I'm afraid to even put this out there in
the world I mean the the the bass clarinet to me feels for the most part e a little easier than the clarinet I'm
going to say you know you don't have to over holes, you know, and the music goes slower. It's really my speed, you know.
Um, and I got into it and you start playing and the more and more you play, you enjoy and you're in this situation.
So you get to hear and you listen to what's around you and um I just developed and then I started preparing
for some auditions and and uh and the the first person that I really I think I
played a lesson for was Jim Jim Anuy from the Met Opera and um you know short of you know what
him saying one phrase yeah you know the bass clarinet it's the the balance between the read being not too hard and
not too soft so that way you can play the whole phrase you know something something typical gym stoicy, you know,
right? But but spot on. And and then after that it was, you know, we worked on the music and there was no talk about that. And
the next time I played for someone was a a French guy named John Mark Volulta. He
um he was a tester at Buffet. He actually developed the 1193 that we know, the prestige bass and the Tusca
bass. And he wrote a terrific method book, you know, the bass clarinet. Um, and I was fortunate enough a friend
Patrick Msina had brought me over to play in the orchestra, his orchestra that Jean Mark was in. So I got to hear
Jean Mark play. So I got to hear and Jean Mark was a his I mean I hope he's
still around. I know he still plays a little bit. He um he's that like player like if if there's bass clarinet
playing, you know, he's playing, you know, it's there. It's tasteful, but it's it's there. And um what I had heard
in the average bass cliner player in the states, the average, not everyone, was certainly symphony, if there was a solo,
you heard it, otherwise it was, you know, a good boy seen and not heard, you know, good child, I should say, seen and not heard. And um that's not my
personality. Um and I and I played for Jean Mark, a bunch of excerpts and you know, again,
nothing to say about all this other stuff. We just talked about the music. I I came to think maybe I've got
fundamentals squared away and maybe it works and and um you know it it's just a
fun instrument to play. I think uh I think there's only one in an orchestra
so you get to play with the cellos and the bases the woods. There's just something to it and and uh and like I
said maybe it it comes a little bit more naturally for me than than the E flat clarinet. One of the things that I
noticed in listening to some of the pieces that are on this new record, which is what what we're here to talk about. Sorry.
But no, it's all right. No, the this other stuff like listen, this other stuff is like I love it so much and I want to share my love
and your love with anybody that wants to listen to it. But the the thing when I hear and this is from me hearing you
play the bass clarinet in real life and on this recording that it's stunning to me how there your bass clarinet sound is
round and even and it projects but doesn't get edgy. It's this weird sort
of mythical thing in my mind like you know these are all things that I you probably won't say for yourself so I'm going to say them for you. You know the
bass clarinet I feel like is an instrument that needs to be played a lot of ways. It needs to have a it needs to be able to go like when you when you
need it to go, but it also can be played very lyrically and very beautifully and is something other than just an instrument that provides color. And I
and and the way that you approach it really has all of that in there. And I I almost find it a little bit irritating
because it sounds so nice when it's doing the thing where it has to go. It still sounds so good and I think to
myself, what the why the can I do that? Well, look, look, I mean, anybody, if I can do
it, anybody else can do it. I just I've got a concept in my mind. I don't like that edgy, buzzy sound. I I mean, I'm it
I for me it's not and I've listened, there are some great bass clin players throughout the ages who get that sound
and I, you know, I listen past it obviously because you listen to what else? That's their voice. You know, you have a pretty voice, it sounds pretty,
you have an ugly voice, it's ugly. Whatever. It doesn't matter. But it's what else that they put in it. But no, I I have a, you know, I have a sound in my
ear. It's almost easier to say I don't want to sound buzzy and constantly I mean
just the other day I'm just warming up for something trying reads with another clarinet player. I was playing bass and
I was this does that sound edgy and buzzy? He's like no. And I'm like but it feels like it. I hear that in my I hear
the little in our ear that we hear that probably no one else does and certainly no one in the audience by the time the
sound got there would hear. I I it just I don't like it. So I I I'm always looking for something that doesn't have
that. I don't think I'm playing a very resistant or hard read or hard setup to do that. I just I voice in such a way to
try to avoid that. I don't know. I have no idea how you do the the magic that you do. But thank you.
But but when I hear it, it doesn't sound to me like you're playing a soft read because the sound doesn't ever unfocus.
And to me, that's kind of the danger of playing a soft read is the sound's going to go crazy. Absolutely. And and it doesn't go crazy when you do
it. Thank you. I mean, I'm I'm playing like a three and a half V12 on a medium open
mouthpiece, so it's maybe a little firm, but everybody's playing hard reads, I
think, on bass. And, you know, again, it's the concept I I I I know more what
I don't want to sound like than what I do, you know? Well, yeah, but but let me I'm gonna I'm gonna call you out of that a little bit.
Nobody develops the sound that you have by avoiding things, right? I mean, come on. Let's be fair again.
Look, I I and I I'll the beginning of this I was playing, you know, there were
no V12, V20, none of these reads. I was playing bluebox reads on a B40 and the and my friend Jean Paul, he just said,
you know, start on two and a halfs till you get all the stuffy resistant notes figured out and all this. And then I
went up to threes. Uh, and I mean, and it was I was learning. It was not I was
not going out on gigs with twos and threes or whatever, but it's a lot of time just, you know, practicing and stuff like that. and trying to figure
out what I wanted to sound like. And and again, having come from living three years in France, I was playing all sorts
of solo pieces and stuff, what can I play on the bass? And I, you know, of course, like everybody else, I have the
boello suites. I was trying to play those. And it was all this sort of stuff. And and and learning to read bass
cleft, I might add. It just, you know, worked through a lot of stuff and then eventually got to slightly harder reads. But then the end you get to that point
where now it's too hard and nothing comes out or now it's it's that balance and for me like I said it became a
voicing exercise of tongue position and I'm I don't I don't play with a I'm
sorry for the the non-clar players listening this is getting technical I don't play with like a stiff perfect clarinet amisher on bass I play with
like super relaxed mushy and that works most of the time until you have to do
like high articulation and then you got to change of course But I mean like uh very relaxed and round and you know I
don't um no I I bite more on way more on the clarinet than I do on the bass. In my experience biting on the bass
clarinet is just going to make it not work. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And it reminds me a little bit of what you're talking about like
the short answer that I got from a a jazz player actually named Gary Foster who was not just a jazz player. Sure. Legendary studio player.
Yeah. And he played everything and he played it all really well. And uh he you know he said to me in his little studio
in Alhambor, California when we were studying jazz alto he goes and I was talking about bass clarinet. So I was going to get a bass clarinet and he goes
you know Jay it takes a little while before the bass clarinet becomes your friend.
That was his bass clarinet lesson. That's excellent. That's but it's it's true and it's true. Yeah it is true. Not not
actionable necessarily but it's true. Correct. Uh, talk to me about this. And this is actually just for me, so pardon
me for anyone that's listening. This is for me. I have this weird block between reading
bass clarinet, reading bass clef and playing and holding a clarinet. Like I'm not great at it when I'm
playing the piano, and I'm not a great piano player, but I can kind of read it comfortably when I have when I'm sitting
in front of a piano. But the clarinet, I am so attached to reading treble cleft. How did do you use a system to learn how
to read bas and play the clarinet? I'll tell you, and this is funny, like I I you know, I got out of Soulfetch class
somehow in in college, but uh and I guess I could read well enough, but not with an instrument. The first real gig I
had to play on bass clarinet was the complete Romeo and Juliet ballet. And in
the ballet orchestra that I was playing in, I still play. It's in ballet theater. The part that was on the stand
that I got was bass clarinet and bass clef, the whole thing. Now that's three
hours long. And uh I took the part and I was holy smokes I gota I gota and I carried it
everywhere and I read it like sfz exercises in my mind not not saying do father none of that just kind of like c
dfg just and and then practiced it and um and you know the was really I think
very well prepared and there was a bunch of performances and then it came back whatever and it was it was really
learning by doing in that case and the funny thing is years later I had to miss
the same ballet we needed a sub got a sub shows up part understands bassclft
sub is like ah I don't do bassclft that well that fast that whatever
right digging and dig turns out the librarian has the same was the same addition but a
bass a treble cleft part and he gave it to him was fine and and the guy in the librarian is like well do you just want
the treble part and I'm like, "No, I learned bass cleft. I'm I'm doing this in basscluff. I, you know, I don't want
to change I the one thing for bass clar player is whatever bass cleft and and in
a no I can do one or the other to do both at the same time. I just I just
don't have those tools." Years ago, I was I was uh in a it was a wonderful month of my life. I was
working for a guy named Sufyan Stevens and he's a great pop, you know, indie
artist and uh there was this pretty complicated piece that we were going to
record and he hands it to me and it's in basscliff and like the microphones are about to be
turned on and I said, you know, listen, I've got to be honest with you. This is a waste of time because this is gonna be
I can't I'm not gonna this isn't gonna work today. And I said, "Your time, if you spend 20 minutes even figuring out
how to turn this into treble cleft on Sellius, that's going to be 20 minutes better spent than us here with me trying
to do this, wasting everybody's Thankfully, he he did." And it was just it was absolutely
doable at that point. Yeah. I thought to myself, God, you know, you hear all those stories about like studio
studio guys and what they could do and this the skill set they had and and it was it was the prototype of like, well,
what are you going to do if this happens? You know, like it did not feel good. Did not feel good at all. And I mean, yeah,
and to this day, I still can't do it. Well, I mean, I I've done it. I try to
do it. I I try to read it as often. You know, it's it's like if you It's a
muscle. You use it, it stays. If you don't, it doesn't kind of uh I mean, my C transposition for clarinet probably
right now is probably awful because, you know, you rarely do it. I own a C clarinet now. So,
not that I you know, you end up playing a piece where there's three lines and see you do it, it's fine, whatever. But like,
right, but uh I I went in some opera company, I forget what it was, was to do one of the famous operas, whatever. It was just a
rehearsal and uh I'm talking to a friend the night before and he goes, "You got you got a sea clan already." He goes, "Yeah, you'll you'll want to bring that." I'm
like, "Oh, is there a lot of sea clar?" He goes, "You'll see." And it was like 85% seclaved
my life today. Like I would have just been horrendously embarrassed. I was just out of tune but I was playing the right
notes. So but uh yeah. So just practice. This is so to to emerge from all this.
Let's say you're a guy sitting in New York and you want to make a record of yourself playing the bass clarinet.
That seems nuts to me. like where does this idea come from and like how did you make it turn into a reality?
About 10 years ago, I put out a a clarinet and piano album uh called the forgotten clarinet which is on some of
the platforms. I have to get it on the streaming platforms. That's another project for the future. Uh and I
recorded a bunch of you know French repertoire that nobody it's called the forgotten clarinet stuff people didn't know. Just you know wanted to do it. I
was always like digging around shelves and sheet music and all that sort of stuff. and I've got a lot of sheet music
and I'm always kind of curious by nature with all this sort of stuff. So, plus I wanted to do something. I wanted to like
leave my place in posterity or whatever the world. I don't know. It's a foolish idea, but whatever. I did it. I had even
done a Kickstarter and I got support and I did it and recorded blah blah blah. Done, finished out. Congratulations. And
then move on. And that was hard and expensive and I don't know. And anyway, it started out I should I want to try to
do something for bass clarinet or whatever. And someone wrote a piece for me. Oh, nice. And then I next thing you
know I'm asking a couple people commissioning and the next thing you know and Peter my pianist uh composer we
we played at a clarinet convention in Belgium. Uh and we it was it was a nice convention. I went in and normally I'm
working at a booth on those things and I play a little bit but it's a nightmare whatever. Uh this I went the day before
we rehearsed played that morning and I left that afternoon or evening after a nice lunch on the on the boardwalk there
whatever. Um, we played in a little movie theater. Yes, a little movie theater with an upright piano. That was
I mean, talk dry acoustic, man. This I didn't know dry until this, but
whatever. And to my surprise, there were maybe 25 people there, 30 people there,
and I only knew two of them. So, that was kind of neat. It felt good. And a couple people who I trusted who who who
came who I met then. Uh, this is nice music. you know, you should you should
record this. This is this is good stuff. Okay. And then it was, you know, yeah,
it's true. I'm I'm known I'm for better or worse, I'm known as a basseliner player. Well, let me do something. Let's
increase the repertoire because quite frankly, a lot of the repertoire we have modern repertoire. It's not not
beautiful. It's not lovely. It's not singing. It's not dancing. It's extended techniques and all that sort of stuff.
And I I can't do that stuff. I can barely slap tongue. I can't circular breathe. multifonics a couple I don't
know like it's just it it's not my not my voice not my bag not my thing I mean
I I feel yes I feel we all should do a little of that because that's how we learn it's maybe the thing of our time
um but you know I thought there was still nice music that's being written and uh so I asked a couple composers uh
one of which who had written a piece for commission I'm going to record all this stuff if you want to add or change or
whatever next thing you know that became a one movement piece became a three movement piece and then I found another
friend a composer like yeah I'll write you something and that was the the you know the first piece and then uh I asked
Pakito could you make you know do you have anything I could sure oh oh sure arrange it next thing you know it's in
the inbox it's something he already written he stretched out and um and and I asked Jimmy Heath because Jimmy Heath
I knew him he was such a nice but funny uh and just a a great person and I I
said do you have anything that could you know a piece a song or whatever I need, you know, like literally like 2 days
later it showed up in my email. [Music]
[Music] Uh there's this little piece called New
Picture, which is a tune that he's written. Uh and he changed something so he could extend rights or something.
It's a long whatever. Um and I mean I had done the same thing in the past with
Phil Woods. Phil Woods had written a little uh he had a piece uh uh it's
called for Jill with love his wife uh a tune and he arranged it for a trio that
I'm in for clarinet saxophone piano so I was like you know what and it was nice it was fun and so I asked Jimmy Heath
and he sent me something and and it what I love about it you know new pictures the name of the song and Philip Coupe
again we were talking once about recordings and he says well you know recording is like a snapshot of that
day. You know, it's you're in a studio, you're where you are that day, you do it, you do your best, and it was like
and I thought, "Oh, new picture, a new recording and that song." And and I I'd love this kind of sentimental jazz waltz
sort of thing like it is. And um I just I wish I was an improviser. I wish I could have played tried to play a solo,
but I mean I it's just again not something I I only improvise by accident, I should say. So it's not not
something I do. and and that takes serious learning, you know, and time. So, no, it does.
So, so that's the that's how the music came together. Peter and I we went back to record in the same studio we recorded
the first album when it's a a studio in in outside of Paris, Lotus Studio, it's
called, and it's um Jean Pierre Bouquet is the name of the the engineer. And it's in his house. He has a beautiful
living room with a nice piano, all stone and really lovely. and the all the cables go through the walls and he's got
the booth up two flights up in the the attic space or whatever and and uh we
went there and you know uh we recorded we even had one or two of the composers there for it. Um it's funny you know we
had two days to record this album. We get there the first day we get through the first tune or two with one of the
composers. He leaves and we start working on the next thing and we realize the the piano has has slightly gone out
of tune. Needs adjustment. What do we do? It's the time of year, you know, it happens.
Call the tuner. Uh tuner can come tomorrow morning. Oh boy. What do we do now? So what we did, and I'm maybe I'm
pulling the veil back a little bit and maybe I shouldn't, but everybody edits. I basically recorded anything solo. So
in in Peter's piece, the three songs of uh without words after Schubert, there
are cadenzas that connect each movement. So we recorded those and then we
recorded uh uh there's a some other stuff in one of the other pieces. We did
all that. We did everything we could. The oh the cadenza in the Broton's sonata concerto. Uh we did all that and
well we'll come back tomorrow and we went back the next day. piano was tuned and we we in about six hours we recorded
the rest of the CD. Um and then was pretty, you know, we got it all done and
like any project where you hear yourself or you listen to yourself, you have to listen to yourself. I hated it. Terrible. Like I mean this was wow. And
then we got it all edited nicely, you know, and all the stuff and I the sound was awful. Like I I don't know. So a lot
of questions and email and back and forth and then I just then pandemic I sat on it. I didn't want to know and I
forgot about it. And and uh and then Michael Marowski, the composer, wrote the first tune, Tarantula.
[Music]
[Music]
Dark heat.
[Music] um when what's going on and you know
he's a composer. He's not a clarinet player. So he's not saying yeah that is fuzzy or there that's fuzzy or yeah
that's you know he's like man it's great why don't you put it out what's going well I don't like the sound and he just
said why don't you go back in the studio and see what you can do about the sound. So Peter and I went I made notes and we
went and we pressed play for in the studio with the engineers, three of us and we talked about sound and with this
and this and that and this and it was all manipulations of you know you you know it had nothing to do with the
plane. It was none of that. It was a little bit balanced and then it was sound and how do you want it to sound and and uh and the next thing you know
we leave and I'm like we were there we were there nine hours. I think we spent more time doing that than recording. And
then what what I've learned in the pandemic, I've learned a lot about recording in the pandemic, but I all my recordings
happen right next to a highway. So there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of problems with that. But but how much
you can impact the sound is and and and it's not impacting to make it sound like
it unlike what you it's to to make it sound like it actually was supposed to sound in the first place,
right? and and you learn there are all sorts of compression and you every time something gets emailed or sent there's
something that can go on and all this stuff and and then the the engineer told me he says look you're going to hear in he you know we're in this thing with
these ridiculous speakers and we're listening just like that and he goes he goes you maybe you want headphones too
because you'll hear how it could be different and I mean you're hearing like my shirt's noisy you know because he's
like the microphones are so sensitive whatever but and then you start going now can we tweak the you know can I have
a little more clarinet here and a little little less you And and then he you know when it was all said and done honestly
and I'm not being a wise guy. I'm like well that you know all right you know what I mean like you you feel like I can
I feel like I can let this go like I feel like this can represent me and and and look I listen to it there's still oh
this could have been you know there were always like that way but but the thing is I I sent it to each composer when I
thought it was done. I sent each what do you think? And I got a little feedback from each ones about you know basically
positive and and I was like really and and and uh okay I I guess you know I
guess we did it you know I guess we were able to you know play their music for them. That's that's the danger with them
being alive and then asking them 100%. You know, and then like your own
you forget about your being your own group. Like there was a compressor on something where where Salvador Broton
was like there's no dynamics. Where are the dynamics? He's like I heard you we
and I had played it with him as a concerto standing he was conducting his orchestra. I was playing it as a soloist
and he goes I know you play with dynamic like it was kind where are they on the the CD you know whatever and it was
true. there was all these compression things that would auto EQ or whatever
and it was like wait a minute we got rid of all that sort of stuff and all of a sudden it started to come to life and and
so how did this all happen? This all happened with you know saving little bits of money here and there and I'm lucky it took a lot of time and I didn't
print CDs so I didn't spend the $2,000 on stuff that would be in my closet
anyway. Um, and just and I was lucky. It was just little by little, you know, every time at this, you know, studio
it's 500 bucks or 600 bucks or it's, you know, whatever. But I wanted to do it. I feel compelled to do it. I wanted to
show again that the bass clarinet is a a a singing instrument. It could be a voice. And and I I feel like it's my
voice, honestly. From little gigs to to to chamber music stuff. I I love it. But,
you know, every clarinet player, I'm still a clarinet player. I want to play clarinet. you know, you have this chip on your shoulder where you always want
to do it, but the bottom line is we're musicians. We want to share music with people. And if that's the tool that I'm
using for it, that's the tool I'm using for it. So, could you talk to us more about the
experience of having the composer there with you? Because I mean, so infrequently do we get that when we're
playing and performing and recording music is the composer there, unless it's like a movie thing, but that's not
really the same thing as an art piece. Talk to me about like the difference in your experience when the composer is there versus when you're playing a piece
of somebody who's not there or is perhaps not, you know, hundreds of years ago wrote the piece, right? Well, that's something I always wish we
had commentary from Mozart talking about how someone played his music and there
are certain letters that say, "Oh, they play my fast movements too fast and my slow movements too slow." That's kind of funny because we're doing that today
also, right? you know, not um same thing with bronze. You know, we got there's one recording of Brahms playing piano.
You can hear, okay, it's all scratchy and we're not piano players, so what do we know? But um I I just they write it.
They have intention in in the 21st century. Uh they had all their tools.
They could write words. We could talk. They can give us all this explanation of what they want. And yet a lot of them
still it's just you know whatever allegro and a temp of tempo range and
all the slurs and stuff and and I'm I like to be detail oriented when I play music. I think it's important. I think
if someone put a staccato there they want that note short not sort of short not and I like having them there go am I
am I getting your intention because their their expression is black and white on
paper. We bring it to life. We're We make it, for lack of better words, we
make it three-dimensional. We make it breathe. We make it, you know, sing. And, you know, on paper, it's not that
way. So, to be able to have a composer there and tell you, hey, for a sec in a set of ears, like, is something right or
something wrong? It's funny while recording this, this is I forgot about this. Reeden was there, Alexander
Reeden, who was a clar player a long time ago, uh, lives in Switzerland, teaches composition, I think, still
composes. Anyway, um we're in there. We're playing and he says, "That's
something wrong." Whatever. What we basically saw is, you know, one page in
the part got transposed or got something happened to it. So, we're playing and it
it it worked, but it wasn't what he wrote, right? And we're like, "Well, okay, what do we
do?" So, we printed out the right page. We wrote in the right things. Uh but the funny thing is he liked
something that was different. So we had that too. Um but I mean to have that the set of ears
of someone that has the idea of what it should be like was was great. I love that. I mean and I
remember asking Pakito for example. So there are a bunch of recordings of this piece Bono right the whole Argentinian
story and astropy. It's all you know there are things talking about this and and I'm like well what is it? He goes
it's a dance. It's got to you got to know its dance. It can't be too slow and it can't be too fast. It has to have
this. I'm like, well, what is it? We did this together. He pulled out the metronome and he said, I wanted this
like this speed. You know, you can play around it, but that's the that's the speed. Okay. Because there are
recordings that are faster and slower out there.
[Music]
[Applause] [Music]
And I love being able to get that. Now, does it mean that mine's my recording is definitive? No. But it was that day he
said, "I want this and I believe it should go that way." And I think I feel bad for composers in some respect
because like we're, you know, they got a bunch of yokals like us interpreting in black and white going, "Well, I think he
it says this, so I'll do this." You know, I mean, well, have have you ever read the Gunther Schuler book, The Complete
Conductor? No. I know him by reputation. never met him, don't know anything about him. But it's a hilarious book as he very incredibly
went through multiple like 30 recordings of the same piece and then was judging
in a very judgy way, I think, intentionally if the if the conductor
was honored the score and and it was and it was very interesting because it was that same
idea of like, you know, how much of this turns into our interpretation of what
they did, right? when when you're talking about this super interesting the whole idea of I think any composer would say this
needs to sound like their song that they're singing it does need to have it's undeniable it has to have some of
them in it otherwise it's not going to be a very compelling performance but how can we match that version to being
honest to what I intended that's that's a very delicate balancing act absolutely what you know what I think if
we're true to ourselves I think our personality comes out in our Yeah. You know, and we know and I'm sure we
all know people that that's the case. We also know people that do their best not to do that. You know, they have an ideal
that they follow and there's no right or wrong. But I feel like if your interpretation of a piano in that
situation and your how far you go in a crescendo, I think that gives that
personality and gives that that, you know, Jay Hassler of the piece or the David Gould of the interpretation of the
piece. Um, and and I think that's good. I mean, I think it's it's our responsibility obviously to do our best
to do everything that the the composer wanted, but um uh you know,
and try to make this come alive, you know, that's one of my teachers when I was in high school gave me really good advice and
they said, "If you just do what the music says, it's going to sound pretty good just as a starting place. Just
just follow the instructions and you don't even actually have to intentionally make a phrase. It'll actually happen if you follow the
instructions properly, if this music has been edited well. You know, it was funny. I remember
hearing a story about a an older I'm going to let's just say it's a string
quartet and it's an older vi the older violinist there is older much older.
He's playing second violin and everybody's talking about the phrase and high point and the this and all the
emotion and all this and you know what do you think? and his answer was I would just love a good clean performance,
you know, and and and I we have to make sure and what I find I don't want ever
to upstage the music, you know, and I think there's over interpreting or it
becomes I don't want it to become the Gould sonata. I want it to be someone's sonata played by Gould, for example, you
know, I just I feel that that is our responsibility. Yeah. you know, for better or worse.
Now, that doesn't explain uh every situation or things, but I I do I do
feel like and like what you said, you know, let's start with what's on the page. That could be that could be pretty good, too. So, you know, especially
again knowing that the composer wrote it. So, that means I think they wanted it this way. They took the time.
I I made a joke in in uh in one of my my dojo classes the other day when I'd
written because I I Even the etudes that we are working on, I rewrite them with
my own edits in there because if they're edited by somebody else, I figure I might as well edit them myself. And and
so I I said, "Hey, it took me about 20 minutes to figure out those dynamics and
put them in there. I really want to hear them." Like like I really thought about that,
right? So it's my it's my little like insight into like what it must feel like to be a composer. you've sat in orchestras just
like I have, just like probably everybody that's going to listen to this. The text on the page, and that's
something I learned in France, they called the music, they called it the text. It's a common language. So, if the
back row, if the bassoons and the clarinets have dots, and we're playing with the cellos and the cellos have
dots, well, you play dots. That means you should be listening, but like that
tells you, okay, there's space between every note. It's not licensed. Well, I'm gonna play a little bit longer. I like
it long. I don't like playing short. You know what I mean? Like, no, that's what you do. Like, that's what they ask. My
job is to play those notes. And there's something magical in an ensemble when everybody's listening that
everybody can can find a way to agree and not talk about it. Well, you can't talk when you're
playing. At least we can, you know, as woodwwind players. And uh and you don't talk in concerts hopefully. So,
but but I I feel like once somebody starts to talk about it, it just gets unraveled and never put back together.
I mean, look, I'm sure when we were all students, I remember the the chamber music rehearsals uh that went on hours
and hours and hours where we were talking about, you know, every little 30 second note in, you know, in whatever it
was and and we took the time and we rehearsed over and over. It's amazing and it's incredible and you really get
to learn something. But then you started to go am I thinking too much about the micro and not enough about the macro and
you know but look that's the right place for that though I mean absolutely absolutely
um so listen so this this this recording we can find it yep all the streaming so so Apple Music
and Spotify title and all the other ones that I don't even know probably exist it's even on YouTube you know so you
could find it um it's I mean if streaming, it's free. YouTube, it's free with, you know, commercials, I guess.
But let me plug the whole thing. All that's going to be down in the description and or the show notes. Don't forget to like and subscribe. Five star rating. Please
share this with your friends and find this record and all the places just listed and just
go ahead and do it by clicking down in the description. Outstanding. Yeah. Um Yeah. No, because you you got
to learn how to do a good call to action when you're doing stuff. That that's actually one of my downfalls as a content creator is I don't do the call
to action in the right place. Yeah. They love the the click the buttons. And I mean, I joke around. I
just did a a little Van Dorne class at Tangle Wood and I was at the Buffet Academy and all this. And I just made
the joke, you know, look, do me a favor. Click like and subscribe. Like to me, standing in front of them live, not on a
device, not watching a thing. And I said, "No, no, seriously. I've been stuck at 1472 followers on Instagram
forever." And you know, and I'm like, "No, no, take your phones out right now. I'm holding. I want to see notifications
like you know and and you know people laugh and then you got to pick up a couple but yeah know that the call to
action it's a great way of putting it. I mean just anything to to develop a following for me like in starting this podcast and
doing the YouTube channel and doing all the the the stuff that I do like I there's never going to be a great deal
of money in it and particularly the actual content itself right and I just want people who love the clarinet to
just say all right I'm going to check it out. Oh, there's a cat. Sorry. Come on. Keep going.
Moving on over. No, but but but just because like it like I'm so into this at this point like
like I just I just want people to be like, "Yeah, I'm glad you did that." And then you don't have to agree with it.
No, absolutely. And you know, and if you don't agree with it, cool. Yeah. You know, be nice about it. But, you
know, like it's fine. The beautiful thing about this is there's no shortage of space for it. And
hopefully in the future we'll have this like for the album. I did we did
interviews with all of the living composers. I'll link like like all of them. Well, Jimmy Heath
had passed so I have a I wrote some stuff and and Alexander Reeden wrote things. He didn't want to be filmed.
He's he's older and but you know Salvador Broton's and and Pakito and all these they're short. The idea was just
short where it would be again getting program notes from the composer again something else. What were you thinking
when you wrote this? What was the just because you know for the future hopefully in a hundred years someone's
like this guy recorded this bass clarinet piece and I want to you know what's it about and then someone can
find it maybe. Right. Yeah. Yeah. From a Yeah. That is a beautiful thing that we can do now. Like I I just wonder like you know when
I was a kid, back when I was a kid, I used to have to go listen to a record. Yeah. Sure.
Like and I I had to actually actively search for things and now the the searching is so passive and I feel like
like it's I I get worried that these darn kids these days don't recognize that they should be pursuing it with
that same passion of somebody who had to go to the library and and check out a record or listen to the record in the
library to be able to hear these things, you know. Um, and so like I just I just
get fired up. I want people to use the resources that are available and I want to make as much of the resources that
they they can find this stuff because um and and it's not because like
I want to be, you know, I wouldn't mind being famous for it, but that's not why I'm doing it. You know, I'll take it if
it happens. Be a happy byproduct. Yeah. Right. So, let's get famous. But uh listen man, this is this has been an
incredible conversation and I am very very glad that I was able to overcome my
my rage of anger when I saw you were on another podcast first. I I I I I felt
like it I had to really grow as a human being. Oh my god. So not serious. So not serious. But uh
but no, I'm look anytime I I I love doing this stuff because it's a conversation with two people and
it's can get edited out or whatever. But you just you go with you feel you think and and we you and I we share a lot of
stuff in common, stuff we do, stuff we want to do, stuff we hope to do, stuff we try to do and all that. And and it's
it you know I think it's easy to identify which is great. So, so listen,
like like I think our rapport is good and I will I will be inviting you back to talk about more general clarinet
topics whenever you whenever you'd like. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. No. Yeah. Because uh you know, it's important to have a
good partner to banter with and something that you can do other than play the clarinet. It's it's banter.
I think the banter is maybe what I'm best at. The smart Alec banter. That's
Yeah, I grew up I was I was born for this. All right, man. So, thank thanks for being here. Don't sign off yet. We'll
talk a little bit after I I stop recording. All right, man. Thank you. We're all going to be checking out the album.
Yeah. Thanks a lot. All right, man. Take it easy. Bye. Thanks to David Gould for sharing all of that information with us. Once again,
you can find the links to the record, to David Gould, to me, to the Clarinet Ninja Dojo, all in the show notes or the
description. If you're still here, please make a comment, make it nice, give us five stars, like, subscribe, do
all of it, cuz I would love for people to hear all about the clarinet. and
share my joy, my love with anybody who has any warm feelings about the planet
at all. Thanks for being here.
