Welcome to the clarinet ninja podcast. My name is Jay Hassler. As always, I'm doing my best to bring you the finest in
clarinet information and entertainment. Today on the podcast, we have Mr. James
Dander. Whoa, don't you know he usually plays us in. He's playing us in today with a brand new track off his brand new
album. The name of the track, the name of the album is If Not Now. And James
has just released this record. It is a fantastic record. You're going to be hearing bits and pieces of it through this conversation. I've left links to
James down in the show notes down in the description. Uh they'll take you to his website. They'll take you to the records. They'll take you to every bit
of information James has shared with the world. And you know what? I have left some links for me down in the show notes
down in the description and it will tell you everything that I have shared with the world. But most particularly what I
want to share with the adult clarinet players out there who are looking to up their rate of improvement on the
clarinet is the clarinet ninja dojo. It's a fantastic place. I would say the premier place to uh learn clarinet, have
a great time, and make some lasting improve, make some immediate improvements, and make some lasting improvements. Let me talk to you
seriously for 10 seconds. Have you liked, have you subscribed, have you left a rating, a comment, maybe
something nice? If you haven't, or even if you have, consider doing it. It would
do a lot to help these conversations about the clarinet just get out there in the world and I would love that because
I feel fortunate to be able to put content like this in the world and I would love for a lot of people to see
it. That's it. Have a good time. James and I talk about some cool stuff. Check
it out. James Dander, how are you, man? I'm doing well, Jay. Thanks for having me here.
Oh, thanks for being here. I mean, it's good to have you here in person after hearing you play so often at the front of the show. But speaking of that, the
world gets to hear you play all over again because word on the street is that you got a new record coming out. Yes, indeed. Yep. It's uh it's coming
out um September 19th. So, there's a couple of singles that are available now
and uh the the record's called If Not Now. And uh it was recorded
um last October. last October. Yeah, that's
right. In uh not that far from you at um Rudy Van Gelder's studio.
I remember because you forgot your sunglasses at my house and I had to drop them off at the doorman for you to pick
up on the way out out of town. Yeah, that's right. No, I I remember the recording of the record. Tell us, if you would, uh what
makes Rudy Van Gelder studio significant in the jazz world? Um, I mean, I guess the number one thing is how many
historic or famous jazz recordings were recorded there. Um, Rudy Van Gelder
being the late great engineer, recording engineer, uh, who recorded Miles and Col
Train and Hank Moy and Lee Morgan and Jackie Mlan and really just all all of
the great um, especially uh, Blue Note recordings.
Um, so that's that's the first thing. And um, then the room itself is just
it's a beautiful room. It's a beautiful sounding room. Um, I don't know if you could throw up a photo of it, you know,
but the just the the wood ceiling, you know, how it kind of goes
up like a pyramid. Yeah. It's just it's a very it's a very uh nice sounding
room. But when you walk in, I mean, you really feel
you feel the some kind of presence there, you know, and you look at
pictures of albums and and whatnot on the wall. And there's a picture of Cold Train sitting on the stairs that are,
you know, just right next to you and they haven't really changed, you know, which is kind of cool. Um, so yeah, all
those things make Rudy's studio very unique. Heat.
[Music]
Heat. [Music]
[Music]
in terms of walking into this, you know, revered space. What uh what did you
bring with you in terms of of tunes? like in in terms of could you we'll be playing some of the some of the the cuts
but I'm just curious to know if you could talk to me about what this album means in terms of your trajectory which
so explain a little bit like where you came from the albums that came previously and is there something about this album that you're bringing
something that is representative of your uh journey as a
musician I guess I don't really think about it in terms of journey I think the journey is something that I I we only see looking
back. Um, but I just think of it as kind of a a
snapshot of, you know, of my life
at that particular time, you know. Um, so all the songs on the record, there's
10 of them and I I wrote all of them. I think the I would say the recordings sorry the songs kind of reflect
um things that I'm listening to and then aspects of life you know I wrote a song
for my kids who at that point were six and seven years old and um you know
little things like that where I think I'll look back and and I'll it will make
me think of certain places and certain [Music]
[Music] [Applause] Hey,
heat. Hey. [Music] Heat. Heat.
[Music]
[Laughter] [Applause]
[Music]
[Applause] Heat. Heat. [Music]
Well, it's funny to think about that from the artist standpoint because that's what music does for all of us,
right? I remember the the first time I I remember hearing Giant Steps for the first time. I know where I was, you
know, and I remember you're probably too young for this. There was a pop artist named Howard Jones and I can remember
sitting in the back of the car with my headphones on, you know, my parents driving me around listening to this Howard Jones album.
Like you can really place yourself when you music and I I never thought about it since I don't write my own music. I
never thought about that aspect of music from the artist side. I only thought
about it consumer side. I have the same experience with, you know, some of those recordings.
Talk to me about your composing. I know I I know your your work writing like
jazz tunes and like that, but I think I know the answer to this. You also write music where it's for ensembles where you
write all the notes out, right, for everybody. It's not just melodies and chord changes. But on this record, it's probably just jazz tunes, right? But I
know you do other work. Can you talk to me about what you do as a composer? Yeah. Um well I think um looking at sort
of my recordings I've written for I guess the smallest thing has been trio
clarinet drums and piano and um and
actually a lot of the piano parts I did write out just um not that I'm a pianist
but sometimes I write out more specific parts just because it's it gives the
artist uh a clearer sense of what I'm after, especially if they're a good reader.
Other recordings, I think the largest one that I've written for was Big Band, which uh a
recording that the Vancouver Jazz Orchestra just recorded uh last summer.
And uh you know, that's a 17piece band. And uh in that case, yes, I'm I'm
writing out parts for all the musicians. And then beyond that, I've uh dabbled a
little bit in film scoring um where a lot of it is is within the um
the uh the program such as Logic. Writing more orchestral sounding things.
I'm definitely would not, especially in your presence, call myself a composer of
orchestral music, but um it's just um yeah, the film stuff has
been a real wide variety of, you know, just pop, classical, a little bit of
jazz, you know, um cinematic soundsscapes and all that. Um, but I
haven't been doing as much of that in the last few years. It's been more composing for
medium to large ensemble, jazz ensemble. And this recording is it's a sevenpiece
band. So, this is myself, clarinet, bass clarinet. Uh Corey Weeds on tener
saxophone, Steve Davis on trombone, um Atley King on vibrophone,
and then Mickey Amanaka on piano, uh Tyrone Allen on bass, and Kush Abad on
drums. So that's three horns. And it's kind of it's one of those things, Jay,
where it's it's a jazz tune, but it's more than a lead sheet, right? does it does take some time to
arrange and kind of consider that. So yeah, sometimes I think of myself as
kind of composer with a lowercase C, you know, that that's that's very humble of
you. I mean I I mean I've heard you play your own compositions and I would I I would give you a capital C.
If I sounded like I was diminishing composing as like a lead sheet, I didn't mean to do that. One of the things that I've heard so many times because it was
a part of my daughter's bedtime playlist is uh Blue Train. We used to listen to that cut off that album. And it's just
funny like you know I would go through phases where I would be singing either the trumpet part or the trombone part
rather you know like like I would be singing the the harmonies in it just for fun because you know when when you're
putting someone to sleep every night for two years you got to sing along with
something other than the the top notes. Right. Yeah. Uh and and and it's it's uh it's interesting how much impact like I never
thought about it when I first heard it, but the impact of the arrangement part of that is really really huge for me,
you know, because the first time it's all in unison, the second time it goes into the chords, it really it does shape the experience of hearing the music for
sure. Mhm. And I'd never I never actually thought about it consciously until this. So
thank you. In terms of bass clarinet clarinet divisions, how much bass clarinet are we going to
hear on this record? and how much clarinet and the bass clarinet has been something I've been slightly aware of
because you know because we're friends like of you bringing into what it is that you've done had conversations about bass clarinets and whatnot but can you
tell us like how long it's been that you've been working to bring the bass clarinet into part of what makes your
music like sound what makes it you like how you've been doing that and and how
how do you decide what pieces go on bass clarinet what pieces go on clarinet well it's going to be about half the
record is clar clarinet and the other half bass clarinet. And uh
I think um there are some pieces that um I mean
as you know clarinet bass clarinet yes they are in the clarinet family but they have very different characters.
Um, and uh, so when I'm
looking at a piece, sometimes I have an idea of which instrument it's going to be. Uh, but often I'll just kind of play
through it on both and see which one feels more suited to to that song. And
I've I've It's actually been a lot more challenging than I expected.
All right. Are you willing to share what those challenges were? Well, yeah, and still are. I mean, when I think of bass clarinet, I just find
that the voicing the voicing is is not quite the same as clarinet. And just even individual notes
are just there's a greater difference in terms of
resistance, you know, uh from from one note to the next,
right? And I feel like the bass clarinet has not gotten sort of the treatment
like the clarinet has. I feel like the clarinet's really dialed in. It's a soloist instrument as well as an
ensemble instrument whereas bass clarinet has been mostly an ensemble instrument. I just don't feel like it's
totally dialed in.
[Music]
[Music]
Hey. [Music]
I think I get what you're saying because like the you know the planets had an interesting trajectory in jazz, right?
Because it used to be a featured instrument like like you know band leaders played the clarinet and then the
advent of Bbop and the challenges of the clarinet made it not an attractive instrument for
Bbop except for just a very few people and I what I feel like I'm seeing now is
the clarinet becoming more of something that's a mainstream jazz instrument in in a certain sense and in like how does
clarinet fit into the modern jazz sound? I mean, we have people that are doing it now that yourself included. It doesn't
have the post 1950 history that the saxophone does, but it's still coming into a
thing. And and and there's still a way that we attach it to what we know. The bass clarinet's like a real free agent,
right? I mean, like we we don't have we I think it's coming. I think I think it's happening. uh that there's more
people playing jazz bass clarinet, but pretty much if you ask someone to name a jazz bass clarinet player, they're just
going to say Eric Dolphie. Done. And nobody really sounds like Dolphie, nor should they? I mean, he was a singular
type of player. I mean, who wants to copy that necessarily? I mean, because it's such a specific voice. I mean, so,
uh, I mean, who wants to copy? It's great. Who who wouldn't want to copy it? But if you're trying to be your own person, it would be hard to copy. And so
like when I hear you play the bass clarinet, I hear an instrument that the way you do it is different than the
way you know my another podcast guest Todd Marcus has done it. It sounds different than when you know my friend
Ron Odri does it. I mean everybody sounds different playing the bass clarinet and it's not to me attached to
a tradition. You guys are all bringing something that is either you know whoever your whoever you learn jazz
vocabulary from. Whatever became you is expressed simply on the bass clarinet. But it's not, it doesn't feel like
there's as many similarities to draw from player to player, which I don't know if that even makes
any sense, but like Oh, yeah. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. What's interesting to me is a lot of the
people that I think are are great jazz clarinet players are also pretty good or used to be pretty good or study classical clarinet,
right? But most of the people I don't, and forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm kind of assuming you never like studied
classical bass clarinet and how to fit into an orchestra and took lessons in that way. And I don't think, you know, I don't think most of the bass clarinet
players I hear that are playing jazz, they did that potentially early on in their life in their education with the
clarinet, but not with the bass clarinet. And the other thing that I like is that a lot of clarinet players
are now playing bass clarinet, playing jazz bass clarinet, or more so. I mean, not a lot. That's an exaggeration. But
if but it's not necessarily people coming from the saxophone that have adopted the instrument because like unless somebody has done a lot of work
and I know and one of my very good friends who might listen to this podcast has done that work. So I don't want to dismiss that. I mean there's one
singular person that I'm thinking of when I say that. Uh but you know someone coming from a saxophone background playing bass clarinet is different than
someone coming from a clarinet background playing bass clarinet. Mhm. And it's interesting to me to to sort of
be able to hear you on the same gig go back and forth between clar bass clarinet. Somebody playing the ba the
bass clarinet isn't so much featured as it is you playing the bass clarinet. Right. Yeah. And then I think that that's something that
that uh even hearing Dolphie his presence is so strong
as a as an artist, but you're still it's the bass clarinet really stands out like well that's that's a weird thing to do.
like like you know when he's playing alto it's he's still playing the same stuff but it doesn't sound quite as weird because he's playing an instrument we
all know so well but the bass clinet's you know I think only coming into its own now as a jazz
instrument from an improvisational standpoint I've talked long this podcast is about you not necessarily how long could it
have taken you but how long was this album in sort of production from the idea of production meaning like starting
to write the tunes and having the idea and the commit committing to doing the album in your head like how long is that
process I have no idea what that is like. Well, you know, if I can, I just want to loop back because you said a lot of
things that I I uh that resonate with me and I just I think it's interesting when
you talk about the bass clarinet there being a free agent. I love that.
It's um and and there is I feel and I feel this I've always felt this way with
the clarinet as well at least in the modern context is that it's it's a
little unusual. You don't have that many references in the modern context for jazz clarinet
and certainly bass clarinet. And um and there's some freedom in that which I've
I've always enjoyed. By comparison, when I play the saxophone,
it's hard for me not to hear all of these other voices, you know, of, you know, Joe Henderson and Stan gets
Cannibal Adly and Phil Woods and, you know, Bird. And when I play clarinet, I
just it kind of feels like, oh, no, I'm just I'm just doing my own thing, you know? I'm just,
you know, which obviously I'm it's not it's not my own thing. It comes from,
you know, all the greats that I've listened to, especially saxophone players and trumpet players and and I'm
kind of taking that information and channeling it through this instrument. But just be for the simple fact that
there are fewer reference points. It just kind of feels
like it feels freeing. So, free agent. There we go. Maybe that's the next album
title. Well, listen. You know, nothing would give me more joy than to have accidentally titled an album for you. I
mean, that would be, you know, I'd be talking about that all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I'd never shut up about it.
But, you know, to get back to the difference between the two. I think you're right. I uh I definitely have a a
fair amount of experience studying classical on clarinet. I don't have that experience on the bass clarinet. I find
it so hard to, you know, even just in the last 10 years, finding enough time for all the instruments. The bass
clarinet is kind of the thing that is the it's just kind of it's fun.
I love that it's a different character that I can bring to to a performance. I
can but it's still in the same world as the clarinet. So those two things, those
two voices, they complement each other nicely, but it doesn't yet feel as easy
for me as the clarinet. It's been 10 years or or whatever of of devoting some
time to it a little bit uh over those 10 years, but um yeah, it still feels like
there's a long ways to go there. Well, it makes sense that that you're kind of playing feels more natural since
you've been studying it very very strictly I mean not strictly but very very hard for a long time because you
know uh you went to Interlockan high school for the arts was that what they called interlockan arts academy what
what's the name of it yeah interlockan arts academy or no it's
something like that yeah you can say something that most uh renowned jazz clinet players can't say
that you studied with Richard Hawkins yes and and I don't think his list of jazz clarinet players of his students is very
long, I would imagine. I'm just guessing. U and you know, it's a tribute to his teaching, right? That that he can
teach you to play the clarinet and then allow you to take what you learn from him on the clarinet and then make
absolutely whatever you want to do, which is the goal of everybody teaching, right? How do you find your way on this
instrument and not necessarily have to do exactly what your teacher does? And you've you're an extreme version of that. And I think that that's a tribute
to you and to him. Yeah. Richard Hawkins uh I have to say was you know in terms of how to play the
instrument one of my greatest influences and he
totally changed my perception of of what it kind
of the ideal uh in terms of just playing the instrument well and playing it
effortlessly. And that was that was really the thing that I was just so
struck by with with hearing him play uh was just it was so it seemed so easy.
Prior to that the clarinetists that I had studied with were fantastic but it
wasn't that effortless level of mastery. Hearing him and seeing him play was
really just changed my perception of how to approach the instrument. And then of course getting to study with him and
getting into the you know finer points. Um was great. Such a generous
uh fun soul. I don't I' I've never met him, so I don't
Oh, he's he's on my list of people that if I see him in a room, I'm going to walk up and introduce myself, but I've
I've never gotten the chance to do it. There's a conversation you and I had. I don't know how long ago it was.
Probably longer than we've known each other for we've known each other for a long time now, right? I mean, 15 years.
And and and we were talking I don't know whether it was on the phone or in person. And I was talking about the idea of playing relaxed. And you I don't know
if you remember this conversation or this is maybe what you would normally say. He said, 'I don't think of it as relaxed. I think of it as as playing in
a way that feels natural. That it was that that was actually just a vocabulary word that changed a lot of
how I think about how I play and how I teach and like like it was it was one of those moments where I thought that's on
James is on to something. So I wrote on like I have I would have notes that meant a lot to me and I would write them
on a piece of paper and tape them to my music stand so that when I would be moving the music I would be remembered of that. And that was that was on my
music stand for about seven, eight years. Oh wow. I'm honored. I don't remember that conversation.
But but it it was very powerful. And it sounds like it came, you know, you're using a lot of related words and talking
about Richard Hawkins and how he taught and and and uh what what you took from it. Mhm. Yeah. And uh I mean I don't I
haven't talked with Richard in you know in a while but I've been
playing his mouthpieces almost exclusively for uh I mean since then since since
that point and and now I'm playing uh you know because he's collaborating with
Bun and Bun is in my hometown of Vancouver.
Uh so I I'm playing one of his mouthpieces now as well. Uh, by the way,
also an interlockan, speaking of great masters of the clarinet was uh a very
young Anthony McIll and uh I I remember that I I do I do remember
like one time you were in town you're like let's go hear Anthony let's go hear Anthony McIll play the the bronze quintet or I most quintet I can't
remember which great piece it was knowing you as like a jazz guy you know you know of course I pigeon hole you and like why would you know Anthony McGill
and and I kind of I know better now than I I did then. I'm like, why does this guy know Anthony Miguel better than me?
But but you got his tickets and so I totally I totally got over myself. And
we went to that that place. It was a beautiful room, right? We couldn't really see him, but it sounded so amazing. And then and then we got to
talk to him afterwards. It was super fun. Looping it back to the recording uh that I did last year, I like to
listen to great classical players pretty regularly, you know.
when I'm practicing to try and get into that sound that sort of that nice round
ringing tone. And um so at the recording session
uh at Ruby Van Gelers's I had uh Anony's one of his albums on my phone just at
the ready and I would just kind of I'd listen to it and I'd just try to copy a
few notes just a few notes just to kind of get get back to that ring ringing
sound. And uh yeah, I haven't talked to Anthony in a while, but you know, I love
his his approach, his sound, the warmth, the vibrancy of it.
Like when I hear him play, I don't it's almost like he's not blowing like it's it's it's just like it's just like kind
of coming out. It's it's it's completely unforced. I don't feel like he's pushing it towards me. I feel like it wants to
come to me. Like it's everything just sounds completely without any any resistance at all. even though you
know obvious I mean obviously we know as a clar player in order to make that sound there's a lot of effort that you
know and attention and you know that goes into it but uh yeah no I agree I heard him play a couple years ago at uh
this church on 96th Street and it was a free concert right and so we go into the free concert but it was a free because
I'm me and I don't read things it was a free t concert that you should get tickets to right the tickets were free
but you should sign up for them and I didn't sign up for them and And so I'm standing out there in the rain and I was like the last person let in and I had
the worst seat in the house. I was like way at the back and up upstairs. It seriously sounded like he was sitting
next to me playing the clarinet that the sound just the sound just sort of permeated everything. Like it was
just it was just it was it was an amazing thing. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. That ringing sound. Um
and I I think he's a great example of it. Uh and he makes it seem so easy. Really pisses me off.
When you were studying with Richard Hawkins, did you already know what you wanted to do with a clarinet or were you learning clarinet and you didn't know
you were going to like focus your life on on jazz music? I was uh I was studying saxophone and
clarinet. I was studying saxophone with Bill Sears. Uh also just an amazing
experience to study with Bill. Even at that point, I knew that clarinet was kind of more me, if I could just say
that. more just felt more like my voice than saxophone. I also just found I
wasn't quite as comfortable in the jazz context on clarinet, you know, u for
reasons that you kind of alluded to already, but we could talk more about. So, I wasn't sure,
yeah, how to how to find my way um in in that kind of music, but at the same
time, I I knew there was something there because it just kind of Yeah, when I
played the clarinet, especially improvising, just felt like Yeah, just
felt like my voice. And I was already way into Eddie Daniels at that point.
And then as it turns out, Richard and Eddie are tight, you know. I
mean, they like Richard was just, you know, when I was studying with him, like
uh when I started, I think he had just spent a couple weeks at Eddie's place in New Mexico just hanging out, making
mouthpieces. It's such a great coincidence because then I got to understand a little bit more about Eddie
and his approach through Richard. And I even got to talk to Eddie on the phone
once or twice. This is a very roundabout way of of answering your question. I had
a sense at that time that clarinet was was kind of the way for me, but I didn't
know exactly how to do it. Well, there isn't quite the blueprint for it, right? I mean, like I feel like people that
learn jazz saxophone, there's a way to learn the saxophone and jazz together. people have a lot of people have done it
like the number of people that have come to it that same process but switched the word saxophone for clarinet the pieces
don't fit exactly right because they haven't been honed quite enough yet but
which which kind of leads to a question for me like when you were learning jazz on the clar I think I think you kind of already answered this but just for the
people that are listening I feel like people that want to play the jazz clarinet are either clarinetists who
don't play jazz or saxoponists that want to learn the clarinet. And I want I want
I want to use your experience and I want you to tell us what you can think of. I I'm kind of ambushing you with this
question. A clarinetist who, you know, plays clarinet but never really play jazz. What are some first steps to
becoming a jazz clarinet player? And then after you get done answering that, would you please answer a saxoponist
who's a a jazz saxoponist? How should they what are the what's the first one or two steps they should take into
learning jazz clarinet? Wow. Okay. Um, I've actually talked to Anthony McIll
about this years ago because he wanted to get more into to jazz and
improvising. The first thing is you have to to listen to the music. Find jazz artists that you really love ideally on
your instrument so that you can kind of get a concept for the sound. And just a lot of listening and then a lot of
copying. And it doesn't have to be um you don't have to transcribe a whole solo, but just just phrases, couple bars
here and there and just play along and try to to get the feel of it because I
mean if you take someone for example Anthony, you couldn't find a better clarinetist. So that's not a problem.
It's just the feel. Classical players tend to think of swing as being more
extreme than it is. I mean, you're you kind of live on both sides of the the
fence a little bit. Yeah. Grass is always green, right? They don't even have grass.
Um, yeah. So, classical players tend to kind of play with a heavier swing feel
that uh and more exaggerated uh scoops and stuff, but if you really copy the
feel of even just one phrase, that makes all the difference. That separates you from someone who's heard jazz and thinks
it's fun to someone who's understands the feel more. Would it be fair to say
that that the feel is more elusive than the actual tone of the clarinet? The tone of the clarinet can be a lot of
things in jazz because there's not that much I mean people are coming to it from their own way. It's like, you know, a
saxophone player, if you haven't heard a lot of, you know, Cannonball and Bird, you like you you got to get that and you
have to at least have a connection to that, even if it's a rejection of it, you have it has to be a part of
something that you know. But on the clarinet, a lot of sounds are fine. The lineage is has been fractured from a
long time ago. So, everyone's coming to it their own way. But the I agree with you that the feel is very very hard to
get and the time feel is hard to get. But you're right, the clamp plane is not not a problem, right? It's it's it's not a it's not a clarinet playing thing,
right? It is just how is it that you're feeling the beat. It's like you're speaking a different dialect of the same
language, right? It's not a completely different language. I guess one could argue that it is, but in my head, it's it's a different accent for sure, like
literally and figuratively. So, what now? What about a saxophone player that's that wants to play jazz
clarinet and is, you know, trying to to work their way around the instrument because, you know, simal players have a
hard time with the overblowing of of the 12th, right? So, is that something that you remember? I guess you kind of
alluded to it, right? Where where like, you know, you felt less comfortable playing jazz on the clarinet, you know, when you were interlocking, you know,
and I would imagine it's kind of for the same reason. It's like the muscle memory doesn't translate to two octaves
immediately, which is frustrating when you're learning it, right? Yeah. If it's actually if you learn a pattern, it works in a lot. It works in
at least two registers, right? actually the the reason that it it was
felt a little more challenging to play jazz on the clarinet wasn't wasn't for
that reason because I started on the clarinet saxophone came later so the the 12th was felt pretty natural is more
about the volume um which you know when you're playing with a drummer and
they're playing sticks on a symbol that takes up the same sonic space as the
clarinet. So that's why, you know, a lot of classic recordings where the clarinet is
featured, drums come right down. They're either on brushes or they're playing toms or something, so they're not taking
up the same space. So that's that's why it felt more difficult to to play jazz
on the clarinet because I'd work on stuff in the practice room and you know I thought it was sounding kind of nice
and then I'd play with a band and it took me a long time to figure out what it was but I just feel so uncomfortable
because I was having to blow so hard and the the tone was then compressed and it
just wasn't the soft kind of warm sound that I I kind of gravitate to. So that
that's the reason why more than you know the the just playing the instrument
itself. It's just the volume change is is is you know why I believe clarinet
kind of stopped the the Bbop era. You know that's when that's at that
point in you know 1940s that's that's the break right? They're they're just
there as a couple, you know, that that that kind of persevered and found their
way. But, um, yeah, just just the volume that that
really checks out. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. Well, I've been in a relatively small room with Eddie Daniels playing. I think he was unmiked. He was
a performance, so you know, he didn't it didn't strike me he was playing very loud. Like, it seemed like he was playing a very reasonable volume. And
the other person who I have been in the room quite a bit with for lessons was Gary Foster. I mean, we know him as an
alpha player, but he's a very very fine jazz clarinet player. And his clarinet
tone was that I would use the same words as to describe Anthony McIll. It was a little brighter than Anthony McIll, but
it was un it was unforced. Like he was he was not pressing. And that was one of the things that in my in my brief
unsuccessful jazz career, one of the things that I got frustrated with with the clarinet was my playing. I was I was
forcing so much stuff and and I didn't really realize it was to be heard or the perception that I was going to be heard.
I was playing so much harder. My fingers were harder. I mean, everything was much more tense and I wasn't playing the
clarinet very well. You know, in retrospect, I didn't I didn't I don't think I could selfidentify that at the time, but I
looking back on it, that was definitely happening. That's that's not what stopped my jazz career. It was my notes aren't so good,
but that was definitely happening, too. Can you give us a couple ideas looking at it
as someone that knows the saxophone quite well and the clarinet quite well? What would be the most beneficial thing somebody could do who's a a pretty good
saxophone player, maybe a very good saxophone player who doesn't have much experience with the clarinet, but wants to bring it into their into their sound
into into what what it is that they offer the world musically. You know what I find interesting uh over
the years is seeing really good saxoponists play the clarinet.
And if they're really good on the saxophone, it's interesting to hear the approach to
clarinet, like they can actually get around it pretty well, but it doesn't I
it doesn't really sound like a clarinet. When saxophone players come to me asking
for kind of a just a one intro to the clarinet lesson, it's usually because
they want to go a little deeper than that. they actually want to understand the instrument better. And the first
thing I suggest is listening to uh classical clarinetists to get a a
sound concept. You know, the kind of the warm ringing round tone that we've talked
about today. if they can, if they listen to it enough, as we know, if you kind of
know what it sounds like, your body will figure out how to get that sound or at least it'll it'll make a big difference.
So, the first thing is listening. The second thing I just get into brass tax and explain like the main difference is
your voicing, the tongue position and the soft pallet. Like the back of the
tongue is up, the soft pallet is up. Um, you know, you're thinking E instead of A
or O. And that's where we then get into
the 12th. You know, starting on low C. Okay, they can play the the 12th up to
G. It's fine. And then D up to A is a little less fine.
And then, you know, E to B is a mess. And F to C is impossible.
Um, so we talk about, yeah, that's I talk about that being the main
key difference in order for them to play the instrument like one instrument,
right? And not have a different approach for the high notes and stay relaxed, but also to get that ringing tone.
And then the last thing is touch of just getting them to play a really
slow scale. And this is what uh the one lesson I had with Eddie Daniels. This is
all we worked on. Just really slow scales and just giving a touch for the
instrument. Uh those are the the three things that that puts really good words to the
challenge. But then I think your your ideas about how to do it are are amazing. You did a very good job. I
should uh I should I'm I'm I should and I will steal some of your vocabulary because you talked about what's at the
core of the clan ninja dojo program. By the way, if you're an adult clarinet player that wants to learn more about the clarinet and up your plane, please
consider checking out the clan ninja dojo. Links in the description. But yeah, but exactly right getting playing
the instrument so that those 12ths are voiced so that it's going to give you all the advantages that you can have
because the clarinet is going to be uneven no matter what you do, much more so than the saxophone. And if if you
play in a way that accentuates those, you're really not playing the clarinet. I mean, you're making sound on the
clarinet. You are in some way playing the clarinet, but you're not actually playing it in that same way that you would play the saxophone. But I found
that saxophone players really understand how to practice voicing and overtones very effectively. And they can make that
change very, very quickly. But again, it's pinned on the on listening,
right, of knowing what sound that you want. I mean, I think that you uh I think you solved a lot of problems here, James. I think I think A lot of
challenges challenges met one after the other. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
And and the touch is also interesting too, right? Because like there there is a way that that really fine clinet
playing is and and that's one of the things that left in my jazz playing when I was when I was playing too hard is my
my touch became very very very heavy and uh and it so then all of a sudden I'm
not as as somebody who's primarily a clarinet player, I'm not playing the clarinet very well. And that's very very frustrating. Let's get really nerdy for
just one second. What What about See, you're playing on uh a Bun Hawkins.
What's the name? What What model are you playing on right now? It's the Curado
model. Um so it's it's a little more open but within the classical realm,
right? And and it's Yeah, it's designed by Richard, but it's made by Bun.
And that is the mount that is that is inside the meloc you're playing on the record that that we that we get to hear.
Yes. Yes, it is. [Music]
[Music] Heat. Heat.
[Music]
[Music] [Laughter]
[Music]
Heat. Heat. [Music]
Yeah. And and what uh what re are you playing on now? I'm playing on um 2.75
Leger. Um
I want to say French cut, but I maybe it's the European cut. Ah,
it's one of those. I love that in the world of complete neurotic behavior, you're unsure what
read you plan. I I think beautiful. I think it's amazing. And and listen, I know that you could probably reach somewhere and figure it out for us, but
don't right. It's better that that we don't know. A little mystery.
Maybe it's better that you don't know. But but so you've been playing Legaris for a while if I'm remembering right.
Long time. Yeah. Um, did did you start back when they had the Quebec and the I started uh at the beginning because of
Richard Hawkins. Oh, he was the one who hit me to them. And
this would have been Oh, Jay like very early on. I don't
think they even had multiple models. Okay. Or types. Um, yeah. I think I've
been playing them for for all my recordings. Well, I mean, given you I mean, I will say just, and I say this in
fun, given you can't remember what read you play on, I'm not sure you're a reliable narrator for what reads you
played on recordings from years ago. Is that fair?
That's That's fair. That's fair. But but I can tell you that it's been mostly leger reads um on the clarinet. We've
talked about this in years past, you know, when I've kind of gone back to Kain and uh for periods of time, but um
yeah, Leger's really really pleased with what they've done.
I've I you know, I'm kind of the I feel like I'm the opposite of you were like the amount of time you've played Kane is probably the amount of time I've played
Leger, right? It's been a couple years here and there where I've played them and I think they're really good. the cane
read versus synthetic read conversation is is very polarizing and I don't have polarized feelings about it you know
like I feel like yeah you both ways are good you know which is not very much fun really in terms of a debate standpoint I
I switched to Leger's for the third time during the pandemic because I just you know I just I just
want to leave my clarinet on the stand since we're not leaving the house so I'm just going to leave my clarinet the particular clarinet just to say that I
left together was a green line so it was you know whatever so I so I could just pick it up play it whenever I wanted.
Yeah. Right. I didn't have to get any reads wet. I could just, you know, cuz my my my kiddo was really young then. Probably
for you too, right? I mean, like your kids are in the age where they were babies during the pandemic, right? Yeah. Yeah.
But like like it was very difficult to find any time to do anything. And if I had to get a read wet, that's just time.
I wasn't playing the clarinet and you know, and I sometimes I only had like five minutes, right? So that's why I'm going to play there. There's something
about a a cane read that I feel I just feel really happy playing on it. Even even though I'm simultaneously very
frustrated by how uneven it might be or what I have to do to it or you know how much time I got to take to to make them
work, you know, when it's not the pandemic, I've got time, which is an odd statement, right? Because the pandemic,
we had nothing but time, but not necessarily time for that. And uh well, I've always uh always gravitated towards
Vandor and V12. That that's that's what I that's what I always end up playing. I will go for five or six months and not
play them, but then every time I go back, it's like a bell rings in my head when I the oh my oh my god though. Yeah.
No, this is it. This is it. Yeah. And I think you have the same relationship with Lil Jerry.
Yeah, I do. I mean, uh I enjoy playing a really nicely balanced, perfectly aged
V12. That's also very nice. However, I don't have time to keep up with all my
reads cuz I'm playing, you know, regularly alto saxs, tenor saxs, soprano
saxs, clarinet, bass clarinet. In those periods where I've gone back to cane, I
don't have any time to practice. I'm only working on reads, especially when,
you know, with that many instruments and the read all the reads are changing, you have to stay on top of them and it's
just too much. the conversation of cane versus synthetic. You're right. It is
polarizing. What I would like to say is to and what I do say to my students
is that it's an investment. If you get into synthetics,
um it's an investment financially,
but you are saving so much time. And the the reason it's an investment
financially is because at least for me and I think for you too the
surprising thing about synthetics leger in this case is that they're not the
same from one to the next. They can actually be pretty different.
you know, if I, you know, sometimes I'll get five 2.75 the same model
and and they're all different. You know, you could argue that there's
then you actually get more more types of read to try out. You can find the one
that really works for you or you can find two. If you get 10, you'll probably
find that, you know, six of them are usable and two of them are just bang on.
Well, then you're set. You're set for a year. So, it's it's the people who try a
synthetic and they say, "Yeah, I tried it. It was just it was difficult. It was too too hard or whatever." And then they
stop. I get it. But it's you just didn't invest enough to really do your research
and find find what works for you. I was always disappointed because I'm a little
too lazy to do it right, you know? So, I just maybe and maybe this maybe I'm I don't know what's right. I would find
one that really worked and then I would just play that one and I would have other ones just in case I did something stupid with that one and broke it or
bent it or did something. But then when it was time to get like a new main read, I misjudged the amount of lead time I
would need for that because I would end up without anything that really worked for a while. And that was disappointing
because my my inherent bias was that these reads should all be the same. Mhm. Why wouldn't they be the same? Like
we're trying to solve that, right? That's we're trying to solve.
Yeah. I think I know the answer for clarinet. What What kind of clarinet do you plan? It's a Selmer privilege.
And then what about the bass? Also a Selmer privilege. Is that a low E flat or a low C? It's E flat.
E flat. And uh and what mouthpiece are you using on that? That's um Vandor
uh B20. Is that a thing?
Uh there's a B50. That might be good. Uh uh B40.
B40. Okay. Yeah. And or a B40. You like a B20 is only half of that
mouthpiece. If you can't afford the B40, you just do
it in installments. You get the rest of it later. Get yourself a B20.
[Laughter] I I love the fact that you are unsure
what your equipment is because I feel like like that's something that like I know like my own birthday like what it is that I'm playing, you like I I I
know exactly what it is and I I love the idea that somebody can play the way that you play and not be that beholden to it.
I mean, I think that that's a it's a healthy position that you hold there. I don't know. I don't know. I'm becoming
more and more forgetful with every year. So, now this this new record, let's let's let's get back to this before we
go. So, this new record is coming out, you said the 19th of September. Yes, that's right. Yeah. So, I can almost guarantee this
isn't going to be out by then, but it'll be out soon after that. And so this record is available uh for listening or
for purchase. How and where and why and what? Tell me everything I need to know. It's going to be available um yeah
streaming as as with most albums. Uh yeah, streaming everywhere.
Um and uh available for purchase. You can get a hard copy from me if you go to
my website or just my email address. Uh it's just my name.
Um, yeah, but as as with most people now, it's streaming is is king.
This is a part of the music world I don't know anything about. Like it could be that nobody even makes a CD anymore. Like that that's an obsolete product.
Does that make an actual CD or is there or do are people ever hoping to sell
their music? Is it is that a dead thing that idea of actually personally having access to music that's not streaming? I
would have said that that's gone, you know, completely gone. However, um I'm
recording this album is uh for a label called Seller Records, which is run by
my very good friend Corey Weeds and um they
pretty much always produce uh x number of CDs. Um part of that is just simply
for radio play. Again, I know this all sounds really dated, but but it's still
a thing, you know, uh streaming channels um and radio play. So, CDs are still
required for that, right? And then um you know people are still purchasing CDs. Not like they were
but um yeah I think people a lot of people I shouldn't say people but a lot
of people are would like something tangible. The liner notes are in there photos are in there. you know, the
credits, you can see the title and, you know, who wrote it and if you kind of
want to nerd out about it, you can see who engineered the session and all that stuff. So, it's yeah, still a thing. I I
the the record that I put out previous to this called All the Flowers, I didn't
have CDs printed. I liked that there was no waste, right?
However, you know, when I I look back, I just it's it almost feels like that album
wasn't released because I don't have anything to hold. No, I get that.
Um so anyways, yeah, I've got a box of them now. And um I think people still
like again some people like having uh a
physical thing to take away from a show. Most people will just listen to it
streaming and either is fine by me. You know, I'm I'm I'm thrilled when I find
that people are, you know, listening to my music and enjoying it. Um that means
a lot. Well, I mean, I think that's a good thing for to remind everybody, including myself, right? Which is that
any of us that make anything, the closest I have is like making a podcast or making a YouTube video or doing
something like that. But I think the same thing I'm sure when you make music, anybody walks up to you and says, "I
love the thing that you did, that always feels amazing, right?" Like, "Oh my god, somebody actually likes the thing that I
made." like like it just it feels good to be a positive part of somebody's life in a way that it meant a lot to me when
I made it, you know, and I'm glad it meant something to you when when you received it, whatever that was. But I do
love that people have found it and it's it's helped them or entertained them or done something. And I would imagine it's
the same thing if somebody if I saw David Murray on the on the subway train one day. Oh, really? And I I I don't think David
Murray, for those that don't know, David Murray is a a tener sax player who's a little bit off on guard, not not a a
household name, even in the jazz world necessarily. He's a bit of a a specific thing. I saw him on the train. He looked
very tired and I said, "Excuse me." He had a saxophone. I knew it was David Murray. I said, "I think you're David
Murray. Is that right?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "I just want you to know how much I loved your album Morning Song and
particularly that tune. I've listened to it thousands of times and it it means a lot to me." And I could tell like like
he he just traveled internationally, but he actually perked up for a second and said, "Well, thank you. That that means a lot to me." Because like I met
somebody famous. And I I was very happy to say, "I love what you did." And I
would imagine, you tell me, does that ever get old if somebody walks up to you on the street and says, "Hey, you're James Dander. I love your clan plane."
Who would not like that? Right? I mean, so just to say to anybody, if you see anybody that you like what they've done,
including me and probably James, go ahead and say it out loud. Is it never It never feels bad. That's for sure.
It never feels bad. No, it feels uh because most of the time you feel like
you're just kind of throwing time, energy, and emotion into the void to
find out that, you know, it meant something to someone.
Yeah. A lot. It's nice. All right, man. Well, thanks for being here. It's good to see you,
Jay. Thank you. And if I may just on that note say how much I appreciate what
you've been doing the last few years with uh you know this thing that you've built this channel all the information.
I just uh I love that that you do a deep dive on things.
Um you think about them deeply and you're an excellent communicator. And I
also feel maybe part of what makes you an excellent teacher and communicator
because I think maybe like me clarinet was not did not come easily to you.
wasn't just like just it wasn't just happening. Up to a certain point it did and then it
got hard like like okay I got I I immediately went from not being able to play in fourth grade to
being really really good by 11th grade and it was like gears grinding against
each other to get better than that. Uhhuh. I had to work really really hard from that point forward.
Yes. But but the ascent to what I did in 11th grade 12th grade super easy.
Interesting. Interesting. However, but you have the experience of years of just grinding,
right, to to play the instrument and because of that, I mean, I know that
you've thought about all this stuff in great detail, you know, and so to have
Yeah. to have someone uh putting these things together so uh what's the word
I'm looking for? Well, I'll just go with skillfully. I love it. Thank you. I
direct a lot of students to your channel. Um, you know, if they're
saxophone players, especially because I teach a lot of saxophone players. When
they ask about clarinet, I'll say, "Okay, well, listen to these people and make sure you check out clarinet ninja,
like to understand the instrument better." And there's, you know, there's a couple maybe two other people on
online that I I point them towards, but thank you. Oh, well, thank you. And and the kind
words mean a lot and the support means a lot cuz you know, every view I mean
counts, you know, it does. So, uh, listen then, thank you so much and
every bit of information about you, your records, ways to get in touch with you, ways to hear your music will be all in
the show notes, the description, everywhere. Hopefully this podcast will grow so much that you'll come back and
talk about another record or we can shoot the breeze about the clarinet or anything else. So, cuz I'm I'm I'm I'm
the only host of the podcast. So, I do need episodes with a co-host and I'm considering you.
Woo. All right. Yeah. Next time we can talk about uh pitch, right? because the
last time I I we don't have time for it today, but last time we got together uh
in person, I was kind of uh struggling on some pitch things. You you hooked me
up with uh with some really good advice. So, I want to hear about that. I'm I'm going to click us off so that the rest of the
world doesn't have to hear us about stuff. But uh yeah, well, you'll be back soon. And this is the gentleman that
plays this off almost every episode. This this is this you actually literally count us off. That's my favorite part of
that is your voice counting us off, man. All right, I'll see you next time. All right. Thanks, Jay. Thank you, Mr. James Dander. Those words
that you said at the end meant a lot to me. I've got so much respect for you and the fact that you would come on this podcast to have this conversation with
me and say nice things, it's too much, man. Love you. All right, so check the
album out. Go to the links, like, subscribe, check my stuff out. Check out the dojo if you're an adult clarinet
player. I love you. I love you. I love you. I will see you next time on the podcast.
